Discus verus Discus 2, LS8, ASW 28

Uk handicaps
LS8 100
ASW28 100
Discus 2 100
Discus 98
DG303 98
ASW24 97

Interestingly the first 14 places in the last world
championships were Discus 2 or LS8. First and third
were LS8s.

In the real world pilot capabilities are far more variable
than glider performance. I have seen an ex world champion
in a club class DG101 without water beat most standard
class gliders in a competition.

There is no substitute for skill.
Nigel

It's not even winter yet in the Northern Hemisphere and we're already
starting the "which glider is best?" stuff.

Variability among different serial numbers of the same glider is much
less than it used to be but it's still there due to wing waviness,
winglets, CG, sealing, etc. Probably more of a factor is the pilot,
certainly in climb and even in cruise/pull ups to a certain extent.

Based on comparison flying, if I were after the absolute best
performance, I might slightly favor the Discus 2a--several of them have
given me fits in thermals and I watched Chip Garner and a few other
drivers do amazing things this summer. But I can't fit into one (I'm
6'3"). Moreover, I strongly prefer Schleicher's safety features
(crashworthy cockpit, energy-absorbing landing gear) which is what
pushed me in that direction nearly 15 years ago after a long love
affair with LS.

In considering used ships, gel coat condition should always be a major
consideration, maybe more so than any differences among models. That
said, based on my experience and just to keep the discussion going, I
believe a good used ASW 24 with aftermarket winglets represents a great
value.

My ASW 24 with Hank Nixon's winglets will climb with nearly any glider
and better than many (the stories about the '24's climb "problem"
started in its pre-winglets life). And at Uvalde this summer carrying
full water, I didn't give away much, if anything, at high speed to most
other gliders [would that the same could be said about the piloting].
It's difficult to make absolute statements about performance because
almost no one but a professional leech tucks in right behind another
glider and locks on.

If you're seriously considering any of the Discus 2, LS-8 or ASW 28,
talk to the owners. Like the '24 and the original Discus, each of these
has little things that will annoy you as well as remarkable performance
and handling.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

At 21:36 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
How do these two gliders compare to one another?

Ah yes, winter is upon us. This sort of discussion
seems to boil down to a lot of anectodal evidence from
matching airspeed and glides and the such...out of
curiousity I might try to query further into what your
desires are.

1.) Money is no object...that extra point or two of
L/D is worth thousands?

2,) Looking cool on the ground or in the trailer is
a factor?

3.) How much is this bird going to get flown, or better
yet...raced?

4.) John Cochrane has some excellent writing on how
incremental improvements in piloting allows one to
skip a generation of gliders and still keep up...is
this a factor?

I am not posting to hurl stones here...I spent endless
hours comparing gliders before I bought my previous
two. And I think analysis is important...but defining
ones' needs is sometimes equally as significant.

Has anyone generated a graph of cost/LD when comparing
these ships? In today's market I would assume a fairly
clean Discus is 1/2 the cost of a new ship.

Slightly off topic, but addresses your last point.

'Rollings Law of Price and Performance (for NEW gliders)'

Performance varies with the square root of wing-span;
price varies with the square of wing-span.


At 00:06 24 October 2006, Stewart Kissel wrote:
At 21:36 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
How do these two gliders compare to one another?

Ah yes, winter is upon us. This sort of discussion
seems to boil down to a lot of anectodal evidence from
matching airspeed and glides and the such...out of
curiousity I might try to query further into what your
desires are.

1.) Money is no object...that extra point or two of
L/D is worth thousands?

2,) Looking cool on the ground or in the trailer is
a factor?

3.) How much is this bird going to get flown, or better
yet...raced?

4.) John Cochrane has some excellent writing on how
incremental improvements in piloting allows one to
skip a generation of gliders and still keep up...is
this a factor?

I am not posting to hurl stones here...I spent endless
hours comparing gliders before I bought my previous
two. And I think analysis is important...but defining
ones' needs is sometimes equally as significant.

Has anyone generated a graph of cost/LD when comparing
these ships? In today's market I would assume a fairly
clean Discus is 1/2 the cost of a new ship.

"Chris Rollings" wrote in message
...
Slightly off topic, but addresses your last point.

'Rollings Law of Price and Performance (for NEW gliders)'

Performance varies with the square root of wing-span;
price varies with the square of wing-span.


The first is aerodynamically correct. The second is market observation.

The cost of materials varies by the weight of the bare airframe. All else
like instruments are the same for all gliders. Labor for a given production
technique probably related to surface area.

The biggest determinant of the final price is production volume. Or, more
correctly, the volume anticipated at the start of production. If a
manufacturer knew from the start that the final production numbers would
exceed say, 3000 gliders, investments in labor saving tooling would make
sense. This, in turn, would increase the production run yet more since
lower prices would eintice still more buyers.

But of course, how do you know you are going to produce a lot of gliders?

Bill Daniels

Ernie Schweizer was heard to say that production costs
could be calculated from the empty weight.

At 14:54 24 October 2006, Bill Daniels wrote:

'Chris Rollings' wrote in message
...
Slightly off topic, but addresses your last point.

'Rollings Law of Price and Performance (for NEW gliders)'

Performance varies with the square root of wing-span;
price varies with the square of wing-span.


The first is aerodynamically correct. The second is
market observation.

The cost of materials varies by the weight of the bare
airframe. All else
like instruments are the same for all gliders. Labor
for a given production
technique probably related to surface area.

The biggest determinant of the final price is production
volume. Or, more
correctly, the volume anticipated at the start of production.
If a
manufacturer knew from the start that the final production
numbers would
exceed say, 3000 gliders, investments in labor saving
tooling would make
sense. This, in turn, would increase the production
run yet more since
lower prices would eintice still more buyers.

But of course, how do you know you are going to produce
a lot of gliders?

Bill Daniels

It depends what you want the glider for...

Discus 2a – Definitely the best performer but you pay
the price in comfort. I am 6 foot 2 inches and have
to wear thin shoes and no jersey if I want to close
the canopy. You need 200 hours in it before you start
to get it to perform.

Discus 2b – Next best performer… and good for the
larger American. Again, you need 200 hours in it before
you get it to perform primarily because you have to
learn exactly how much to slip it in the climb.

LS8 - Next best performer after the D2b. You don’t
have to learn how to fly it and it’s roomy. However,
it pushes your toes together if you are tall which
gives you sore knees – this is not a problem for most
but a very serious problem for some.

ASW28 – Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it’s performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8. However, it’s VERY crashworthy
which is excellent.

Discus (1) – you can’t compare it with the above gliders
for performance, particularly at high wing loadings.

If you want to become a serious competition pilot buy
a D2. If you want an excellent performing glider that
is easy to fly buy an LS8 (but check it doesn’t give
you sore knees first). Don’t buy an ASW28 if you are
interested in competitions or if you crash often.

By the way – there is no such thing as D2x. The changes
on the V2x were basically a retro fit of the D2 advancements
to the V2.

Cheers,

Ben


At 21:36 22 October 2006, Roger wrote:
How do these two gliders compare to one another? Is
there a Discus 2x?
How does the original compare in todays competition
world, LS8, Discus
2, ASW-28. Does the oringinal Discus give away any
performance to the
current crop of gliders. Interesting to note that
the LS8 is an LS6
with fixed flaps, therefore, it is still of the same
generation of the
oringinal Discus, or is it?!

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Andy wrote:
Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 - highest
IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
“It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider type, not
pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits for Ben
Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183

http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/

Perhaps pilot skill was involved in the results (especially
for SS)??

Just my 3c worth....

Robert

Bruce Greef wrote:
Andy wrote:

Ben Flewett wrote:
ASW28 - Contrary to all the hype the ASW28 definitely
does not perform as well as either the D2 or the LS8
(including high speed range). In fact, I would rate
it's performance as surprisingly poor in comparison
to the D2 and LS8.


I wonder what data, or observations, you used to arrive at that
conclusion.

Andy

Having won the Omarama Grand Prix, with a current world ranking of #86 -
highest IGC ranking of #7 I believe. Contested World and European
contests in Discus 2s

I would apportion a certain amount of weight to Ben's observations.

A quote from Pete Harvey - UK Racing pilot - on losing day 2 at
http://www.gp06.com/race_diary/diary_day2.htm
“It’s so frustrating to be beaten at the last moment by the glider
type, not pilot skill.” The Discus overtakes the LS8 on final glide."

From the results "SS" - ASW28 never got close.

just my 2c worth...

For Referrence - a simple google search would get you to a ~2700 hits
for Ben Flewett.
http://www.glidingteam.co.uk/competi...cle.php?id=183


http://www.fai.org/gliding/ben_flewett
http://www.gliding.co.nz/