More on ZLA Radio Outage

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1


[ More on the ZLA Outage on 14/9/04. Just to show you how bad
it REALLY could have been. This was the most accurate article
I've seen so far. -Ed ]

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/s...faaoutage.html

Air controllers report chaos, near misses, after computer failure

ASSOCIATED PRESS

10:31 a.m. September 15, 2004


LOS ANGELES - In at least five cases, aircraft passed dangerously close to
each other after a computer failure cut off radio contact between pilots
and air traffic controllers for hours and forced the grounding of hundreds
of flights throughout the country, a union official said Wednesday.

Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

As planes traveled perilously close to one another, "We couldn't do
anything," Ghaffari said, based on his interviews with on-duty controllers
and a review of radar records.

"We can't do our job unless there is communication. If there are no
communications, you are helpless," he said.

On-board safety equipment that includes a collision avoidance system
allowed pilots to avoid potential disaster in the sky, he said.

"That was the hero of the night," he said.

After radio contact failed about 4:40 p.m. Tuesday at the Federal Aviation
Administration facility in Palmdale, the control room "looked like complete
chaos all over the place," Ghaffari said.

A backup computer system was activated but that also failed, he said.

Three workers filed on-the-job injury claims after becoming traumatized by
watching flights veer toward one another on radar without being able to do
anything, he said.

Under FAA "separation standards," planes are required to fly at least five
miles apart horizontally and no less than 1,000 feet vertically. In at
least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two cases planes
came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.

Flights across much of the country resumed late Tuesday after repairs
restored radio contact. But airports struggled to accommodate irked
passengers who were forced to wait hours to board delayed flights.

At Los Angeles International Airport, the outage brought about 400 flights
to a standstill. Two dozen flights at the Oakland International Airport and
more than a dozen at Ontario International Airport also did not depart or
arrive on time.

The delays caused a ripple effect throughout the country as planes bound
for Los Angeles and other airports were held on the ground.

In all, planes were grounded for about three hours at airports in the Los
Angeles region, northern California and parts of Nevada, Federal Aviation
Administration spokeswoman Laura Brown said.

The outage began at the Los Angeles Air Route Traffic Control Center in
Palmdale. The station, located in the desert north of Los Angeles, controls
airspace for a vast region that encompasses California, Arizona, Nevada and
parts of Utah.

Control of the airspace was turned over to other air traffic control
facilities, including one in Albuquerque, N.M.

By 8 p.m. Tuesday, the FAA allowed flights to resume at 50 percent airport
capacity so the facilities wouldn't be flooded with passengers, said Nancy
Castles, a spokeswoman for Los Angeles International Airport.

Air travel reached full capacity by early Wednesday, said Diana Joubert,
an FAA operations officer.


BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBSdx/yBkZmuMZ8L8RAmWQAJ4igT7PSA07tGoBcK7hk1tzGQtxtgCdF9 ax
ZDgQHOlquJegDgE9YohApMk=
=E94d
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to have
been looking for it.

Three workers filed on-the-job injury claims after becoming traumatized by
watching flights veer toward one another on radar without being able to do
anything, he said.

Of course, it's California.



Under FAA "separation standards," planes are required to fly at least five
miles apart horizontally and no less than 1,000 feet vertically.

That's five miles or 1000 feet.


In at
least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two cases planes
came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.

The FAA will no doubt say safety was never compromised.

Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.


In at least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two cases
planes
came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.

Criminies, I have an almost near-mid-air-collision every time I fly!

Allen

"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?

A typical day at any busy airport. Obviously nothing to be concerned about.

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

In rec.travel.air Peter Duniho wrote:
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...
What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?

A typical day at any busy airport. Obviously nothing to be concerned about.

Hardly typical, especially in this situation.

You have an entire ARTCC basically DEAD. No comms to any pilots
at all. In this situation, someone at ZLA had to get on the phone to
the FAA, let them know they're out of comms with everyone, and start
the emergency plans. either ZLA or the FAA get hold of ZAB and ZOA, to
tell them to take over ZLA's airspace, and ZDV and everywhere else to
hold any departures going to LA Airspace.

Then you have to get hold of any planes currently in the air,
which could be on any of the 50 something frequencies Center has ALONE,
and get them down. Most pilots squawk 7600 (lost communications), and
continue on their last heading given by controllers until they hear
back either by the controller on that freq, or company, to tell them
which frequency to contact. In the case of the Mid-Air happenings, two
planes were horizontally separated by less than 2 miles, and the
opposite direction, and less than 1000ft vertically. all ZLA could do,
is watch, panic, and feel their bowels let loose, because they couldn't
get hold of them. By the time that incident had passed, ZAB and ZOA
were controlling the sector.

reference http://www4.passur.com/las.html (Java required) at
9/14/04, 16:45pm. You'll start to see that there are no departures out
of Las Vegas. Arrivals get down, or hold until theyget low enough for
Vegas approach to handle them, but otherwise, nothing goes out for a
good 4 or so hours. Same for LAX (www1.passur.com/lax.html), SNA
(sna.html), ONT (ont.html) or BUR (bur.html). I have friends working at
SOCAL Approach, and they mentioned it was a madhouse there. I don't
blame them.

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.sbcglobal.net/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.2.6 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFBSh0dyBkZmuMZ8L8RApvMAKCYmM/bqIXyaMorzcVZxdIDgs2UUwCZAVsU
HozD0U/1JTg1WyUh9yKbcV4=
=k3xe
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

"A Guy Called Tyketto" wrote in message
news
What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?

A typical day at any busy airport. Obviously nothing to be concerned
about.

Hardly typical, especially in this situation.

Yes, thank you for completely missing the point.

Apparently about 2 miles according the a later quote in the story. Damn, and
I thought Special VFR was generally safe. Well, just goes to show you that
you can operate within the rules for years and years, but still be unsafe
according to the ATC interviewee.

--
Jim Carter
"G.R. Patterson III" wrote in message
...


A Guy Called Tyketto wrote:

Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.

What's an "almost near-mid-air collision"?

George Patterson
If a man gets into a fight 3,000 miles away from home, he *had* to
have
been looking for it.

"Allen" wrote in message
om...

Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.


In at least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two
cases
planes
came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.

Criminies, I have an almost near-mid-air-collision every time I fly!

Me to. How does one file one of those injury claims because another
airplane got within two miles?



Allen

"Allen" wrote in message
om...

Two flights "were almost near-mid-air collisions," said Hamid Ghaffari,
local president of the National Air Traffic Controllers Association.


In at least five cases, that safety bubble was violated, and in two
cases
planes
came within about two miles of each other, Ghaffari said.

Criminies, I have an almost near-mid-air-collision every time I fly!

Allen

I just always do my best to not have a mid-air collision with the ground,
just another day in a spam can.