The joke called TSA

wrote in message
...
On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 02:39:06 GMT, Mitty wrote:

Those lucky enough to be in low risk groups certainly will enjoy the
express
service. People objectively concerned about safety should be pleased that
resources are not wasted on screening low risk groups just to be PC. For
example, I would be very pleased to see Chinese grandmothers passed with
minimal
screening.


It's interesting that you use this example.

Not too many years ago, the white citizens in this country rounded up
a large group of yellow citzens, grandmothers and all, and placed
them in internment camps because of what some other yellow people from
halfway around the world had done.

It had nothing to do with "White" people.


No one was really made safer, but it made all the white folks feel
better, and they had the power to do it, and so it was done.

Everyone in the US was safer, and many live today because of that action.


I have a feeling their rationale at the time was not all that far from
what yours is today, and just as meaningful

We should do the same today.

Just about everybody today ( with the possible exception of
conservative kook Michelle Malkin) believes that it was a shameful
episode of American history, and our government eventually apologized
to the victims and paid reparations.

And like the old saying goes, those who refuse to learn from history
are doomed to repeat it.

Your problem is you are unable to learn, leftist brainwashing.


The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of that
it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US.

It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving up
the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other way
to do it.

The US won it's first comeback at Midway, early in the war (June 42')
largely because of the code breaking.

Anyone who questions my motives here should be aware that my family (US
citizens) was also rounded up and confined away from the Pacific coast.

KG

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 18:46:50 GMT, wrote:

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 17:24:37 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:


wrote in message
. ..

How do you identify a Christian?


The same way you identify a Muslim.


How is that done?



Now you're catching on.

I'm not Muslim, Christian, or Jewish and I don't like Ham.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

kage wrote:

The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of that
it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US.

It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving up
the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other way
to do it.

You're pretty unfamilar with the tenants of counter-intelligence, arn't
you?

Identified spies are very rarely 'rounded up'. They are allowed to
operate, but it is insured that the information that they are transmitting
is bogus. Giving the enemy bad information is better than giving them no
information at all.

Pretty much been that way since Alexander the Great.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

"kage" wrote in message
...
The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of
that it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US.

It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving
up the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other
way to do it.

1) What evidence do you have that cracked Japanese codes revealed the
identities of spies? 2) If their identities were known, wouldn't standard
practice have been to feed false information to some, while capturing others
(without disclosing the grounds for suspicion), depending on which approach
was more advantageous in particular instances? 3) If their identities were
known, why were they not captured in the course of the supposedly
obfuscatory internment? No one else would know that they weren't just
interned in some other camp. 4) If their identities were known, why were
they not prosecuted after the war? 5) Even in retrospect, is there any
documentation of espionage or sabotage by specific Japanese Americans? 5) It
is axiomatic that there will be some spies, including people who just
sympathize with the enemy's cause. Why not intern Americans of German or
Italian ancestry too? Their heritage may not be as physically conspicuous,
but it would be possible to identify many nonetheless--so why not, by your
reasoning, intern those whose German or Italian ancestry was known, or
suspected? At least some of them would probably be spies.

I have a feeling their rationale at the time was not all that far from
what yours is today, and just as meaningful

We should do the same today.

So you're openly advocating that we start rounding up and interning millions
of Americans of certain religious or ethnic groups today. (This time, the
internment would presumably be permanent, since the "war on terror" will not
end in just a few years.) Just out of curiosity, would the resulting civil
war really make you feel safer? (You do realize that a huge portion of our
population would take up arms if necessary to defend our Constitution
against such an odious subversion, right?) Or are you one of those people
who actually try to promote an apocalypse, hoping to be rewarded in an
afterlife?

--Gary

"Gary Drescher" wrote in message
...
"kage" wrote in message
...
The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of
that it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US.

It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving
up the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No
other way to do it.

1) What evidence do you have that cracked Japanese codes revealed the
identities of spies? 2) If their identities were known, wouldn't standard
practice have been to feed false information to some, while capturing
others (without disclosing the grounds for suspicion), depending on which
approach was more advantageous in particular instances?

That, in a nutshell, is how they knew for sure they'd broken the code(s).

The US let it be known (in what circles, I'm not sure...probably feeding bad
info to spies...) that Midway was running out of water. Say the Japanese
codeword for water was Alligator and the word for Midway was Lotus.

The US identified a message saying that Lotus was running out of Alligator
so we're going to attack Lotus...BINGO! We knew they were coming.

At least that's the way I've read it was done.

But, I believe the OP is correct in stating that they put a major iron lid
on the fact that we were listening "outside Yamamoto's door."

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

"Frank Stutzman" wrote in message
...
kage wrote:

The US broke the Japanese secret code very early in the war. Because of
that
it was known that there were many Japanese spies were in the US.

It would have been impossible to round up just the spies, without giving
up
the secret that we knew the code. Thus they were all interred. No other
way
to do it.

You're pretty unfamilar with the tenants of counter-intelligence, arn't
you?

Identified spies are very rarely 'rounded up'. They are allowed to
operate, but it is insured that the information that they are transmitting
is bogus. Giving the enemy bad information is better than giving them no
information at all.

Pretty much been that way since Alexander the Great.

--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

You assume a lot, Frank.

How do you assume the US knew ALL the spies?

Many, many lives were saved by the interment. Just like the millions of
lives saved by the atom bomb being dropped.

Frank, you really should go to New York and check out ground zero, instead
of hanging out in the last bastion of the hippies, Oregon!

Karl

"kage" wrote in message
...
How do you assume the US knew ALL the spies?

First, you proposed that the internment of all Japanese Americans was
justified because the government supposedly knew which few of them were
spies (though you provided no evidence for that assertion).

Then, when it was pointed out that that would not have been a sensible
response to knowing the identities of some spies, you decided instead that
the justification for the internment was that the government *didn't* know
who some of the spies were. Are you making this up as you go along?

And what about the unknown spies among Americans of German or Italian
descent? Shouldn't anyone who was known (or suspected) to be of such descent
have been interned too, by your rationale?

Many, many lives were saved by the interment.

How? Please be specific. What is your evidence? Which internees were
revealed after the war to have been spies, and what life-threatening
information were they privy to that they couldn't have been kept from except
by interning all Japanese Americans?

I'm sure you'd agree that it would be unspeakably irresponsible to represent
idle speculation as fact in order to rationalize the imprisonment of
millions of innocent people based on their race (and in order to have it
done again, as you have advocated). So then what is the factual basis for
your assertion that "many, many" lives were saved by the internment?

--Gary

kage wrote:

You assume a lot, Frank.

How do you assume the US knew ALL the spies?

They didn't. And putting the Japanese-americans into camps did nothing
(or at least very little) to catch the spies. There were several native
born americans spying for the Japanese.

I refer you to "Shadows Dancing: Japanese Espionage Against the West,
1939-1945" by Tony Matthews. There is an example of what I'm refering to
in a on-line review of this book at
http://vikingphoenix.com/public/Japa...5/brshadnc.htm


Many, many lives were saved by the interment. Just like the millions of
lives saved by the atom bomb being dropped.

Maybe, maybe not. Such arguements are difficult to prove and I won't
attempt to debate it. My only point is that 'rounding up' a whole ethic
class to catch a few potential spies is counter productive from an
intelligence stand point.

Frank, you really should go to New York and check out ground zero, instead
of hanging out in the last bastion of the hippies, Oregon!

I've been to ground zero. I lost aquaintances on 9/11. Your ad homin
point is not well received and I think my involvement in this thread is
over.


--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR

On Thu, 23 Dec 2004 13:55:13 -0700, "Jay Beckman"
wrote:

That, in a nutshell, is how they knew for sure they'd broken the code(s).

The US let it be known (in what circles, I'm not sure...probably feeding bad
info to spies...) that Midway was running out of water.

Say the Japanese
codeword for water was Alligator and the word for Midway was Lotus.

The US identified a message saying that Lotus was running out of Alligator
so we're going to attack Lotus...BINGO! We knew they were coming.

American Intelligence had been picking up traffic accasionally
referring to "AF", which Cmdr Joseph Rochefort, who was head of
intelligence in Hawaii, thought was Midway.

He convinced Nimitz to have Midway broadcast a message, in the clear,
so that Japanese listening stations would be sure to hear it, that
their water distillation plant was out of order, and they were running
out of water.

When Rochefort's people picked up a Japanese massage saying that "AF"
was out of water, it confirmed his suspicions.

Even so, a lot of Navy bigwigs still thought it was a Japanese ruse.,
and that the real target of the Japanese was the west coast.


At least that's the way I've read it was done.

But, I believe the OP is correct in stating that they put a major iron lid
on the fact that we were listening "outside Yamamoto's door."

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ