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#1
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider.
He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy" He smiles and takes off. I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch really cost him? Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch? Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too. That's 250 launches In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks. 65X 250 launches = $16,250 What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time? Do you try to keep track? Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ? Thanks in advance T |
#2
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:23:41 PM UTC-8, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider. He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy" He smiles and takes off. I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch really cost him? Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch? Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too. That's 250 launches In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks. 65X 250 launches = $16,250 What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time? Do you try to keep track? Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ? Thanks in advance T I've always said that NOBODY buys a MG to save money on tows. It falls more into the category of that's the ONLY way to get airborne. I guess you could by a towplane and hire or find a tow pilot. Cost savings, if any, occur by avoiding travel costs to a site with a towplane, which can be considerable. One weekend away from home can run $300 - $500. Finally, it can save you the cost of a divorce, which I understand to be VERY EXPENSIVE. Tom |
#3
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 3:23:41 PM UTC-8, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider. He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy" He smiles and takes off. I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch really cost him? Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch? Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too. That's 250 launches In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks. 65X 250 launches = $16,250 What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time? Do you try to keep track? Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ? Thanks in advance T A rare instance when I will agree with 2G . A MG is a convenience, not an economy. A self launch engine is at least a $50K option. At 5% interest (still available even in this economy) that is $2500 a year income, or at your prices 38 launches per year. Forever. Not counting gas, maintenance, etc. Historically you have gotten the capital back when you sell the MG, but you are still out the time value of the money. On operations, it costs me about 1/2 gallon per launch at around $5/gal in 100LL, so $2.50 per. There is extra routine maintenance every year, paying someone to do it might amount to 5 hours or $375. Unscheduled is hard to quantify - I've had about $2000 worth in 20 years but some have had way more. Since I do most of the work myself, I'm averaging about $5 in maintenance per launch. Many fields now have a motorglider launch fee, to recover some of the fixed cost of the operation, where I fly that is $10 - so now I'm up to $17.50 for my free launch. A retrieve costs me about $5 in gas, vs. at least $200 in tow plane charges, average about one a year so that comes off of it. Best guess is under $10 per launch on operations. But - roaring off the runway waving to your buddies who are 10th in line, or announcing on the CTAF "L6 will attempt an engine restart" above 5 of your best friends sitting on the ground at the landout site waiting for the towplane - priceless! I get to launch when I want, at my own pace, no one pushing me from behind or in my way in front. And the inconvenience of a retrieve is almost 100% mitigated which leads to more flying. |
#4
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
Nick Kennedy wrote on 12/14/2019 3:23 PM:
Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider. He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy" He smiles and takes off. I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch really cost him? Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch? Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too. That's 250 launches In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks. 65X 250 launches = $16,250 What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time? Do you try to keep track? Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ? The direct cost of a launching my ASH 26 E is small, I think. A typical launch uses 0.5 gallons of fuel, puts less than 10 minutes on the engine (including taxi time), and that's about it. What has cost money over the years is AD's (like requiring a muffler replacement); age related items such as coolant and hoses, fuel lines; and drive belt changes (one belt in twenty years). A water pumped began leaking around 10 years, an oil hose leaked after 20 years. The extra cost of the annual inspection due to the motor varies, but about 3 hours if the engine is removed, one hour if it isn't. The motor is not just for launches, but for retrieves: I've avoided some long car or aerotow retrieves by starting the motor and running for just 10 minutes; sometimes I've used for it up to 20 minutes, but it's pretty cheap compared to having a towplane come for me. And you should consider how much your time is worth to avoid siting around for few hours at a lonely airport, waiting for the car or towplane, when you could sitting around with your buddies, back at the field instead. So, focusing on the launch costs misses the cost avoidance of retrieves. If you never land out, you don't have retrieve costs, but you are flying very conservatively. You would find a motorglider very liberating, setting you free to explore the weather, find the real limits of your soaring ability, and still get home for the after flight festivities. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best glider we've ever had, and worth every penny! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 |
#5
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 7:04:40 PM UTC-6, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nick Kennedy wrote on 12/14/2019 3:23 PM: Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider. He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy" He smiles and takes off. I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch really cost him? Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch? Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too.. That's 250 launches In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks. 65X 250 launches = $16,250 What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time? Do you try to keep track? Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ? The direct cost of a launching my ASH 26 E is small, I think. A typical launch uses 0.5 gallons of fuel, puts less than 10 minutes on the engine (including taxi time), and that's about it. What has cost money over the years is AD's (like requiring a muffler replacement); age related items such as coolant and hoses, fuel lines; and drive belt changes (one belt in twenty years). A water pumped began leaking around 10 years, an oil hose leaked after 20 years. The extra cost of the annual inspection due to the motor varies, but about 3 hours if the engine is removed, one hour if it isn't. The motor is not just for launches, but for retrieves: I've avoided some long car or aerotow retrieves by starting the motor and running for just 10 minutes; sometimes I've used for it up to 20 minutes, but it's pretty cheap compared to having a towplane come for me. And you should consider how much your time is worth to avoid siting around for few hours at a lonely airport, waiting for the car or towplane, when you could sitting around with your buddies, back at the field instead. So, focusing on the launch costs misses the cost avoidance of retrieves. If you never land out, you don't have retrieve costs, but you are flying very conservatively. You would find a motorglider very liberating, setting you free to explore the weather, find the real limits of your soaring ability, and still get home for the after flight festivities. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best glider we've ever had, and worth every penny! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 In SW Florida the closest glider operation is at least a 2 hour drive away. I have a Phoenix Motorglider in a standard T-Hangar at the Naples airport, which is 10 minutes from my house. It takes me another 10 minutes to pull the motorglider out of the hangar and install the wing tips and I am flying (unless I am lined up behind a bunch of business jets waiting for takeoff). That's the beauty of owning a touring motorglider. |
#6
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
One cost that has not been mentioned is the insurance premium on a motorglider. Potential hazards and risks aside, you are paying your premium based on a much higher hull value. Anybody care to chime in with premium costs on say, a DG-400? That would give a decent reference point when compared to a pure glider of the same era and roughly the same performance such as the ASW-20. Newer ships will have bigger numbers for sure, but it would be interesting to get some data.
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#8
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
My experience is that hull premium scales almost directly proportional to insured value. As I recall, through Costello, it is about 1.5 to 1.8% of insured value to obtain in hull coverage (ground and in motion) for a year. This is based on a sample from early fiberglass sailplanes up through a complex two seat motorglider. I can't readily find my data on motor versus non motor for liability, but on all my gliders, liability coverage is the same, regardless of model. They may have messed up on my two seater, as I think the premium is the same on it for liability as it is on the single seaters.
If you are with Costello, and paying more than 1.8% of insured hull value per year, you are probably flying a plane that has had more claim dollars paid. I guess I am lucky that I am the dataset for most of my planes! Steve Leonard |
#9
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
Eric Greenwell wrote on 12/14/2019 5:04 PM:
Nick Kennedy wrote on 12/14/2019 3:23 PM: Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider. He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy" He smiles and takes off. I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch really cost him? Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch? * Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too. That's 250 launches In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks. 65X 250 launches = $16,250 What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time? Do you try to* keep track? Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ? The direct cost of a launching my ASH 26 E is small, I think. A typical launch uses 0.5 gallons of fuel, puts less than 10 minutes on the engine (including taxi time), and that's about it. What has cost money over the years is AD's (like requiring a muffler replacement); age related items such as coolant and hoses, fuel lines; and drive belt changes (one belt in twenty years). A water pumped began leaking around 10 years, an oil hose leaked after 20 years. The extra cost of the annual inspection due to the motor varies, but about 3 hours if the engine is removed, one hour if it isn't. The motor is not just for launches, but for retrieves: I've avoided some long car or aerotow retrieves by starting the motor and running for just 10 minutes; sometimes I've used for it up to 20 minutes, but it's pretty cheap compared to having a towplane come for me. And you should consider how much your time is worth to avoid siting around for few hours at a lonely airport, waiting for the car or towplane, when you could sitting around with your buddies, back at the field instead. So, focusing on the launch costs misses the cost avoidance of retrieves. If you never land out, you don't have retrieve costs, but you are flying very conservatively. You would find a motorglider very liberating, setting you free to explore the weather, find the real limits of your soaring ability, and still get home for the after flight festivities. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best glider we've ever had, and worth every penny! Adding to the above: You may be able to reduce launch costs with a motorglider, if you can avoid a long drive to the towplane, and, instead, self-launch from an airport near your home. And, while traveling with the glider, you can launch from a nearby airport when you see cu forming, rather that deviating from your route to a more distant gliderport (or weeping softly as you realize you will not be able to fly in those lovely cu). Some of my best flights were when traveling with motorglider, flying when things looked good. There are lots of places with good soaring and no towplane for 100's of miles. Think if it as improving the ROI in the "glider" part of the motorglider - more flight time in better places! |
#10
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Long Term Motorglider Launch costs
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 10:04:40 PM UTC-3, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Nick Kennedy wrote on 12/14/2019 3:23 PM: Several years ago I was helping Wilf Krueger K2 strap into his DG 800B motorglider. He looks up at me and says "here goes the most expensive tow I'll ever buy" He smiles and takes off. I'm curious from those in the know, how much did that launch really cost him? Over say 25 flights a year over 10 years how much roughly does it cost per gasoline powered motorglider launch? Including ALL maintenance and fuel and parts. And hands on time to keep the engine running at say 75/hr labor. Extra annual inspection costs too. That's 250 launches In my LS3a my average launch seems to be about 65 bucks. 65X 250 launches = $16,250 What are you motorheads really paying per launch over time? Do you try to keep track? Or is it just one of those necessary life expense's you really don't want to know the total as you'd pay it no matter what ? The direct cost of a launching my ASH 26 E is small, I think. A typical launch uses 0.5 gallons of fuel, puts less than 10 minutes on the engine (including taxi time), and that's about it. What has cost money over the years is AD's (like requiring a muffler replacement); age related items such as coolant and hoses, fuel lines; and drive belt changes (one belt in twenty years). A water pumped began leaking around 10 years, an oil hose leaked after 20 years. The extra cost of the annual inspection due to the motor varies, but about 3 hours if the engine is removed, one hour if it isn't. The motor is not just for launches, but for retrieves: I've avoided some long car or aerotow retrieves by starting the motor and running for just 10 minutes; sometimes I've used for it up to 20 minutes, but it's pretty cheap compared to having a towplane come for me. And you should consider how much your time is worth to avoid siting around for few hours at a lonely airport, waiting for the car or towplane, when you could sitting around with your buddies, back at the field instead. So, focusing on the launch costs misses the cost avoidance of retrieves. If you never land out, you don't have retrieve costs, but you are flying very conservatively. You would find a motorglider very liberating, setting you free to explore the weather, find the real limits of your soaring ability, and still get home for the after flight festivities. My wife thinks our motorglider is the best glider we've ever had, and worth every penny! -- Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me) - "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation" https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1 True, only a motorglider allows one to explore remote places and /or fly in marginal weather. |
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