Airplane in NYC is a Cirrus SR20

Thomas Borchert wrote:
Just because someone on the net writes that quote exists, doesn't mean it
does. "The test pilots say"? Give me a name. A source.

Good point, you may be right, I don't know what the source of that
quote is from that website. A note, however, the Cirrus needed
standard spin certification in Europe, and I do recall reading that
their test pilot indicated that the spin recovery require full (as in
'to the stops') forward elevator to break the stall, something that
would be difficult with the elevator trimmed up.

So whether or not it is 'almost impossible to recover from', keeping
the speed up when using the autopilot (and its elevator trimming) might
not be a bad idea.

I've flown the Hudson corridor many times. Piece of cake if you keep your
eyes open, listen (and talk) on the radio, and the fan keeps running (you'll
get wet real fast if it stops). The East river's a different animal. Dead
end and narrow. I've never gone up it because I'm not convinced that I
could turn (or would be willing to bank to the necessary angle) sharply
enough at low altitude to get out again. My first thought after hearing
that they were cruising on the river in a considerably faster airplane than
mine was "They went up the East river?!" Could they simply have run out of
room?

Has anyone heard anyone mention the name of the flight instructor? I guess
he/she's a real guy/gal, but from the media, you would never know that there
was a real human in the right seat. Sad.

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)


"Ron Lee" wrote in message
...
My first thought after hearing about this crash was here is another
case of an inept Cirrus pilot tempting Darwinism and losing. Then I
wondered what could have caused this since I have ZERO knowledge of
the airspace and relevant factors affecting flight in that area.

Then I hear about the VFR corridor being only 2000' wide and a left
turn (to the west) with an easterly wind.

So at this point my initial perception may prove to be accurate.

Ron Lee

Matt Barrow wrote:

"B A R R Y" wrote in message
m...

Jon Kraus wrote:

I was wondering when the flight-plan issue would come up... :-)

In case of emergency, you can wrap yourself in it and it'll act like a
giant airbag! G


http://www.ainonline.com/Features/safety.pdf

Check the chart. Who does a more methodical job?



Which has what to do with a flight plan being filed?

Matt

Bob Chilcoat wrote:
Has anyone heard anyone mention the name of the flight instructor? I guess
he/she's a real guy/gal, but from the media, you would never know that there
was a real human in the right seat. Sad.


They announced his name on CNN this morning. If I found the right Tyler Stanger
(there was only one listed in the entire US pilot database), he's from Walnut,
CA (LA County) and is a CFII with a mechanic's rating. He sounds like the
perfect guy to help a newby fly back across the US. I assume more will come out
in the next day or so about what kind of guy he was.

If he is from LA, then I suppose that might suggest an unfamiliarity with NY
airspace, particularly around the East River. But it's all conjecture at this
point.... I'm just talking out of my ass. At this point I am nowhere near
willing to offer an opinion as to what caused the accident. Besides, it usually
isn't any one thing.

As an aside, I saw a women being interviewed who said she saw smoke *above* the
plane right before the collision. Do you suppose they tried to deploy the chute
and the smoke she saw was the rocket firing?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

The BRS/CAPS chute is not 100% and it does take time to
work. Cirrus says they recommend 2,000 and a maximum AS of
133.
Those ground reference maneuvers, turns about a point may
have 50-60 degree banks at 500 AGL. Narrow river, high
speed, medium bank, and two pilots. Maybe the Yankee
management will realize that the Munson accident happened
BECAUSE the other non-rated CFI was in the Citation. The
only pilot was deferring to his first CFI and the CFI was
being polite to the PIC. Read the NTSB report. This may
be the same, expect there will be cockpit testimony.
http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/n...SB-AAR-80-2%22




"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in
message
...
| Bob Chilcoat wrote:
| Has anyone heard anyone mention the name of the flight
instructor? I guess
| he/she's a real guy/gal, but from the media, you would
never know that there
| was a real human in the right seat. Sad.
|
|
| They announced his name on CNN this morning. If I found
the right Tyler Stanger
| (there was only one listed in the entire US pilot
database), he's from Walnut,
| CA (LA County) and is a CFII with a mechanic's rating. He
sounds like the
| perfect guy to help a newby fly back across the US. I
assume more will come out
| in the next day or so about what kind of guy he was.
|
| If he is from LA, then I suppose that might suggest an
unfamiliarity with NY
| airspace, particularly around the East River. But it's
all conjecture at this
| point.... I'm just talking out of my ass. At this point I
am nowhere near
| willing to offer an opinion as to what caused the
accident. Besides, it usually
| isn't any one thing.
|
| As an aside, I saw a women being interviewed who said she
saw smoke *above* the
| plane right before the collision. Do you suppose they
tried to deploy the chute
| and the smoke she saw was the rocket firing?
|
|
|
| --
| Mortimer Schnerd, RN
| mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
|
|

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 02:37:53 +0000, John Godwin wrote:

Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any
open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the
highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the
aircraft.

I've long wondered about whether "congested area" applies when one is over
a river. That's not congested. It is next to a congested area, but it
itself is rather sparsely populated.

- Andrew

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 04:43:12 -0700, Tom wrote:

NY Times had this inteactive graphic today.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...H_GRAPHIC.html

Tom


This fits with what I saw on the passur site. It was as if he'd gone too
far, and turned to stay under the class B (and go back down the river).

BTW, someone mentioned to me that the wind at the time was brisk and out
of the east. That could have widened the turn beyond expectation.

- Andrew

On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:28:05 -0500, Jim Macklin wrote:

Ever go to a school reunion and meet an old
teacher? You tend to become deferential. That is what Munson did.
http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/n...SB-AAR-80-2%22
works

This is a topic of interest to me (a pilot "giving up" PIC w/o
realizing it because an instructor (or perhaps just a more experienced
pilot) is in the plane).

I read the above URL, but I didn't see where that deference was a stated
factor. Could you please be more explicit about this?

Thanks...

Andrew

"Andrew Gideon" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 02:37:53 +0000, John Godwin wrote:

Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any
open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the
highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the
aircraft.

I've long wondered about whether "congested area" applies when one is over
a river. That's not congested. It is next to a congested area, but it
itself is rather sparsely populated.

I've wondered about that too. But If it were construed to apply when you're
over a river, then flight up the Hudson VFR corridor would be illegal--you
can't get over the Verrazano or George Washington bridge under the Class E
ceiling without coming within 2000' horizontally of the bridge towers,
flying less than 1000' above the tower tops. (In fact, it takes a little
maneuvering just to avoid coming within 500' of the GWB towers.)

--Gary

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Andrew Gideon wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 04:43:12 -0700, Tom wrote:

NY Times had this inteactive graphic today.

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/khtm...H_GRAPHIC.html

Tom


This fits with what I saw on the passur site. It was as if he'd gone too
far, and turned to stay under the class B (and go back down the river).

There is now a clip of this happening (at least of things
happening at this time) at LiveATC. The clip is from LGA tower, and
them explaining to pilots what is going on, or that they are finding
out. Rather powerful..

BL.
- --
Brad Littlejohn | Email:
Unix Systems Administrator, |
Web + NewsMaster, BOFH.. Smeghead! | http://www.wizard.com/~tyketto
PGP: 1024D/E319F0BF 6980 AAD6 7329 E9E6 D569 F620 C819 199A E319 F0BF

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