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They call it the impossible turn.



 
 
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  #61  
Old February 14th 10, 02:52 AM posted to alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim,rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Logajan
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Posts: 1,958
Default They call it the impossible turn.

Mxsmanic wrote:
The particular circumstances in which you can safely turn around after
a total power loss on takeoff are very rare, irrespective of
situational awareness or training.


The above is incorrect.

Demonstration of unpowered 180 degree turnback to the takeoff airfield from
altitudes as low as 200 ft was required of my fixed wing student pilot
training curriculum. I've done it in a real aircraft.

My experience was not rare, either. All the CFIs I've flown with have done
it.
  #62  
Old February 14th 10, 03:16 AM posted to alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim,rec.aviation.piloting
Robert Moore
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Posts: 134
Default They call it the impossible turn.

Jim Logajan wrote
Demonstration of unpowered 180 degree turnback to the takeoff airfield
from altitudes as low as 200 ft was required of my fixed wing student
pilot training curriculum. I've done it in a real aircraft.
My experience was not rare, either. All the CFIs I've flown with have
done it.


Sure.....in a Sailplane with a 30:1 glide ratio,
Sure-as-hell not in a Cessna or Piper with a 9:1 glide.

Bob Moore
ATP CFIing since 1970

  #63  
Old February 14th 10, 04:38 AM posted to alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim,rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default They call it the impossible turn.

Jim Logajan writes:

Demonstration of unpowered 180 degree turnback to the takeoff airfield from
altitudes as low as 200 ft was required of my fixed wing student pilot
training curriculum. I've done it in a real aircraft.


What kind of real aircraft?
  #64  
Old February 14th 10, 04:55 AM posted to alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim,rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default They call it the impossible turn.

Clark writes:

There is a point past which a return to the airport is probable.


Yes, and there's a point before which a return to the airport is a form of
suicide.

A pilot has to know that point and the only way to do so is to
train and be aware.


Then many pilots must not be training enough, because they misjudge that point
all the time.
  #65  
Old February 14th 10, 06:02 AM posted to alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim,rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Logajan
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Posts: 1,958
Default They call it the impossible turn.

Robert Moore wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote
Demonstration of unpowered 180 degree turnback to the takeoff airfield
from altitudes as low as 200 ft was required of my fixed wing student
pilot training curriculum. I've done it in a real aircraft.
My experience was not rare, either. All the CFIs I've flown with have
done it.


Sure.....in a Sailplane with a 30:1 glide ratio,


Sure - you understood what I was talking about, but clearly Mxsmanic had no
clue or he wouldn't have made the sweeping claim he did.

As an aside, it is possible with an SGS 2-33A (the trainer our club has,)
which has a best glide ratio of only about 22:1.

Sure-as-hell not in a Cessna or Piper with a 9:1 glide.


Indeed - but Mxsmanic's opinion (presented as fact) was that circumstances
where you can safely perform unpowered turnbacks are "very rare" - which of
course isn't true in the sweeping way he put it.

As an interesting aside, I notice that some newer "glass" airplanes have
surprisingly high glide ratios (like the Arion Lightning with a L/D ratio
of 17:1) not to mention all motor gliders (though there would normally be
no need to practice low altitude "rope break" turnbacks for them!)
  #67  
Old February 14th 10, 12:36 PM posted to alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim,rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default They call it the impossible turn.

Jim Logajan writes:

Sure - you understood what I was talking about, but clearly Mxsmanic had no
clue or he wouldn't have made the sweeping claim he did.


The topic of the thread concerns the high risk of attempting to return to an
airport after losing all power after takeoff. It's hard to see how this would
be applicable to gliders, since they do not take off and they are not powered.

As an aside, it is possible with an SGS 2-33A (the trainer our club has,)
which has a best glide ratio of only about 22:1.


What's on the checklist for total power failure during a climb after takeoff
for this aircraft?

Indeed - but Mxsmanic's opinion (presented as fact) was that circumstances
where you can safely perform unpowered turnbacks are "very rare" - which of
course isn't true in the sweeping way he put it.


They are indeed very rare with any aircraft that fits the category covered by
the topic, namely, powered fixed-wing aircraft. Gliders, helicopters, hot-air
balloons, and blimps are not in that category.
  #68  
Old February 14th 10, 12:37 PM posted to alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim,rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default They call it the impossible turn.

Dave Doe writes:

Presumably you have some good evidence to backup your outrageous claim -
namely some good statistics showing successful vs unsuccessful FLWOP on
t/o.


If you don't believe me, you don't have to do as I suggest.
  #70  
Old February 14th 10, 02:08 PM posted to alt.games.microsoft.flight-sim,rec.aviation.piloting
Mxsmanic
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Posts: 9,169
Default They call it the impossible turn.

Dave Doe writes:

I'm asking you to back up your claim, as without any evidence, it's just
your opinion. I'd say most readers don't value that very much.


I suggest that you and other readers do research rather than listen to me
alone. It's the only safe way to learn things. I am fully confident that if
you do research among reputable and reliable sources, you'll find that my
opinion agrees with them. However, you should not take my word for it--you
should verify for yourself.

I know the sources will agree with me because I got my position from those
same sources. I stand on the shoulders of giants, as the saying goes.
 




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