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  #21  
Old August 6th 03, 03:37 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Arden Prinz wrote:

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count? Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.


Yes, it counts.

Shaw approach is responsible to coordinate class D transitions if
you are receiving radar services from them when you enter class
D surface area.

This is clearly spelled out in the controller's regulations
(7110.65).

The only complication in your case is that they terminated
your radar services while you were in the Class D area, making
it hard to "maintain continuous communication". In that
case, I would call the tower before switching code, giving
location and intentions and saying something like "I had
radar services from Shaw, I assume they coordinated with you
before I entered".


There's no need to call the tower. Assuming the Shaw controller did his job
properly the tower knows he's there and what he's doing. He was relieved of
the requirements of FAR 91.129(c)(1) in accordance with FAR 91.129(a).


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and
91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport
for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is
any other airport within the Class D airspace area.



Even facilities which normally don't coordinate (as they're
supposed to) won't generally get in a p***ing match on freq
with a pilot who politely makes it clear he knows how it's
supposed to work.

If it makes you feel better though, you can file an ASRS
describing the quandry you were placed in, maybe someone will
tweak some procedures at Shaw Approach.

Cheers,
Sydney




  #22  
Old August 6th 03, 04:07 PM
Maule Driver
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"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Maule Driver wrote:
Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it

is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.


The bottom line is:

It is NOT the responsibility of a pilot receiving radar services
to coordinate with each surface area he flies through. (if he
is landing in that surface area, ordinarily radar services would
be terminated prior to entering it)

The facility providing the radar services is supposed to coordinate,
and maintaining contact with them counts under the communication
requirement of the FARS.


Makes sense and I stand corrected. Thanks.

I was trying to think through the meaning of 'radar services' and 'flight
following'. I was thinking that you are not bound to maintain a heading or
an altitude while under FF (right?). So that would mean that you can
deviate from your reported heading and altitude and enter Class D without
necessarily notifying the controller. Or am I way off base here and need to
do some reading?

The particular situation described is problematic, because the
facility providing radar services terminated them w/out a handoff.
In that circumstance, I personally would probably contact the tower
immediately, including in my call up something like "I had
radar services from XXXX, I assume they coordinated with you".
(because that's what's supposed to happen).

Really puts the focus on situational awareness when that happens!


  #23  
Old August 6th 03, 08:10 PM
Arden Prinz
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Flying VFR, there are no direction of flight restrictions below 3000 AGL, so
a climb to an altitude, 2600 AGL in most cases, allows you to avoid Class D.
If weather is a factor, circumnavigate the airspace or call the tower. For
the controller, simply advise of your intentions (climb, or leaving freq.).


In this case, I was crossing east-to-west, there was adverse weather
to the south, a restricted area to the north, and a low ceiling
preventing me from clearing this airspace above. In general, while it
might be possible for me to circumnavigate controlled airspaces in
order not to worry about additional regulations, I personally do not
want to get into this habit. Where it is safe, legal, and convenient
for me to fly through, I prefer to know and adhere to the applicable
regulations and navigate "as the crow flies". Just a personal
preference, I guess. Anyway, that's why I'm seeking clarification,
for the future.

thank-you
Arden
  #24  
Old August 6th 03, 10:37 PM
Newps
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Nathan Young wrote:

If so, what action should I have taken?


Take them up on their suggestion to call the next radar facility. You
do not suddenly lose your transition rights because you got terminated.



I have always assumed that VFR flight following does not provide
transition services to facilities that aren't on their field.


You're wrong, it does.


Hence,
I would have called McEntire's Class D.


A courtesy call wouldn't hurt.



I run into this getting flight following around the OHare Bravo, and
crossing through DuPage's Class D. I always suggest to the approach
controller that I get a freq change to call DuPage tower, and then
give him/her a call on the other side.


Total waste of time.


  #25  
Old August 6th 03, 10:48 PM
Newps
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Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.


No. How can you remain clear when you are right in the middle of it?




I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?


Yes.


You don't have a clearance of any sort so your path of flight as well as
altitude is at your discretion. If you are in Class B,C


Yes.


,D,

No.


then the
controller can give you vectors and altitudes but doesn't necessarily have
to under FF.


What? In class B you are essentially IFR and will be separated from
everyone else. In class C you may or may not be separated. Some class
C facilities make their controllers separate all aircraft from all
others, most don't. In class D you get nothing except a generic traffic
call.


An example would be where you have established flight following and
announced that you are at 3,000ft. Then over Mc Entire, you decide to
descend to 2,000 feet. Nothing prevents you from to doing so under FF but
you would be compelled to contact the tower to enter the Class D.


No, absolutely not. It is 100% the responsibility of approach to
contact the tower. And your altitude isn't relavant. As an example at
my tower/TRACON the TRACON owns the airspace up to 12,000. We let the
tower have about 1500 feet AGL. That doesn't mean however that the
TRACON can bring overflights right over the airport at 2000 AGL without
coordinating with the tower. Any airplane that the TRACON is working
that is going over the airport has to be coordinated with the tower,
even if you are at 12,000, because the tower has automatic releases for
all departures. Same thing if Salt Lake is working a VFR overflight at
12,500 or an IFR overflight at 13,000. He has to call me to point out
that traffic to me. Now you would have to know what kind of agreement
between the tower and its approach facility is in effect. Of course you
have no way of knowing that. That's why overflights are coordinated
with the tower from the approach controller.

  #26  
Old August 6th 03, 11:57 PM
Steven P. McNicoll
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"Newps" wrote in message
news:1JeYa.55203$cF.19683@rwcrnsc53...

No, absolutely not. It is 100% the responsibility of approach to
contact the tower. And your altitude isn't relavant. As an example at
my tower/TRACON the TRACON owns the airspace up to 12,000. We let the
tower have about 1500 feet AGL. That doesn't mean however that the
TRACON can bring overflights right over the airport at 2000 AGL without
coordinating with the tower. Any airplane that the TRACON is working
that is going over the airport has to be coordinated with the tower,
even if you are at 12,000, because the tower has automatic releases for
all departures. Same thing if Salt Lake is working a VFR overflight at
12,500 or an IFR overflight at 13,000. He has to call me to point out
that traffic to me.


No he doesn't.


  #27  
Old August 7th 03, 01:33 AM
Robert Henry
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"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...

Yes, it does. Why would you think it doesn't?
[14CFR 91.129
does not specify that the pilot must establish or maintain
communications with the control tower, simply with "the ATC
facility providing air traffic services". ]


14CFR 91.126d as referenced in 14CFR 91.129a?


A radar facility
which provides approach services to a class D airport certainly
counts.


According to whom? I see several references to the "ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area." Can there be more than one
facility with that authority?



  #28  
Old August 7th 03, 01:38 AM
Robert Henry
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"Newps" wrote in message
news:GLeYa.55220$cF.19491@rwcrnsc53...

Holy cow, I bet you listen to Art Bell.


Who? I guess not.


  #29  
Old August 7th 03, 01:45 AM
Robert Henry
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"Vassilii Khachaturov" wrote in message
om...

Most likely he had already given a call to the class D
tower and coordinated your transition as he would with IFR traffic.


Remember, this is not an arrival, but a through flight. Would it be likely
for through IFR traffic to be that low that the controller would normally
provide such coordination for a through IFR flight. I'm thinking that would
be quite unusual.

"When in doubt, ask"


Agree 100%.


--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI


  #30  
Old August 7th 03, 03:56 AM
Robert Henry
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"Newps" wrote in message
et...

There are no classes of airspace that matter to an IFR pilot. Airspace
classes were designed for VFR. As to does IFR traffic fly low so as to
get into other classes of airspace where coordination would be required?
Yes, all the time. But usually it's not the class that matters but
whose airspace it actually is. If center is working an overflight that
passes thru the top 2-3000 feet of my airspace they will often call me
and ask if I want to talk to him or just take him as a point out. If I
take it as a point out the pilot may never know he got into my airspace.


Regarding the airspace classifications for IFR, understood. The original
assertion that I responded to was :

Most likely he had already given a call to the class D
tower and coordinated your transition as he would with IFR traffic.


The essence of my point is still valid. How often will a radar controller
coordinate an IFR transition through Class D airspace? Based upon your
additional explanation, I'd conclude almost never.

Arrival/approach coordination happens all the time - it must - but
transitions is wholly different.



 




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