Dead Stick Landings

******I could be mistaken, but I'm smelling 'troll' here.*******

You guys haven't been around here long. "Rocky" is most certainly NOT a
troll. Unless trolls fly around doing weird things like crop dusting and
bush flying.

About the engine failure thing. My time is almost equally split between
piston and turbine. A piston engine has never let me down. But I have had
two PT-6's quit on me. Both times in twins at altitude so it was no big
deal.

I guess you can guess my opinion of singles with PT-6s??????? Right now I
prefer three engine airplanes!


Karl

In my 182 I can do a 180 in 350 feet, and that's only with a 45 degree
bank. It then takes another 100 feet to get lined back up with the
runway you took off on. The best bank angle is 60 degrees but I think
that may be a little tough to do in an emergency. So at an unfamiliar
airport I use 500 feet as my turnaround altitude in case of an engine
failure.

Yossarian wrote:
I don't understand how you can pull a 180 from only 400' with no engine
power.

"altekocker" wrote in message
...

I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours

asel,

during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.

I turned 180 but not back to the runway (that would have been 270) and
landed on a taxiway.

ost (Ditch) wrote
once (and I kid you not) I have had both prop governors
fail on a Twin Otter.

Flying jumpers, right?

A good friend of mine once decided to try and gather engine failure
statistics for Twin Otters used as jumpships. Not easy - most are not
reported, and most DZ's won't give you the time of day when you ask a
question like that. On top of that, operating hours are mostly
guesswork. But jumpers talk, and he knew a lot of them.

Of course the numbers for failures and operating hours in Part-121
Twin Otters are available from the FAA.

Near as he could figure, the failure rate in jumpship service was
about 300 times higher than in Part 121 service.

Michael

Flying jumpers, right?

Yup...the scary thing, this was one of the better Twotters out there.

Near as he could figure, the failure rate in jumpship service was
about 300 times higher than in Part 121 service.



I can believe it.


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

That's right at the ragged edge, so I'd say very carefully and pray.

Big John


On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 05:09:52 GMT, "Yossarian"
wrote:

I don't understand how you can pull a 180 from only 400' with no engine
power.

"altekocker" wrote in message
...
I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours
asel,
during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.

I turned 180 but not back to the runway (that would have been 270) and
landed on a taxiway.

I think I would have knocked out my instructor for doing something that
stupid.

"altekocker" wrote in message
...
I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours
asel,
during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.

I turned 180 but not back to the runway (that would have been 270) and
landed on a taxiway.

I have two friends who made successful landings after catasrophic engine
failures. One put his 182 onto a landfill, damaging only the wheelpants.
The
other turned 180 on takeoff at 600 feet in a Tiger and parked it neatly on
the runway -- three pax, no airframe damage, and she now wears the melted
exhaust valve mushroom, in a silver setting, on chain around her neck.

Seth
Comanche N8100R

"Rocky" wrote in message
om...
Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.

"Yossarian" wrote
I don't understand how you can pull a 180 from only 400' with no engine
power.

More easily than you might imagine. Most singles in that class have a
power-off descent rate of about 800 fpm (give or take a bit) in the
normal takeoff configuration at normal glide speeds. It will be a
little more in a steep turn. That gives you a little less than 30
seconds to work with - tight but doable. Generally glide speeds tend
to be 70 kts give or take a bit, and that means with 45 degrees of
bank you're doing more than 3 times standard rate - which means a 180
takes less than 20 seconds. So from 400 ft you have enough time to
make a 180, do a minor correction to line up with the runway, and
flare.

Part of glider training is an intentional tow release at 200 ft or so,
with a return to the field. This means making more than a 180 -
sometimes as much as a 270 - plus another turn to get lined up,
sometimes as much as 90 degrees. The turns are made at normal glide
speed and 45 degrees of bank. Glider sink rates being what they are,
this gives the pilot a little more than a minute to work with - which
isn't even tight. It's a presolo maneuver that a pilot with less than
10 hours total time is expected to perform correctly, and in my
experience most pilots get it right on the first or second attempt.

Michael

snip

had a prop governor drive failure in a PA32 (T-tail Lance) after T/O
from Port St. Joe FL, a 4230 x 65 grass strip. Took off from 18 & was
climbing through 600' agl on downwind when what I thought was rain
began to spray on the windshield. Trouble was, there wasn't a cloud in
the sky. As I was 3/4 of the way on downwind the little idler shaft
driving the governor spit out behind the flywheel & it puked 10-11 qt
of oil out the front. The oil actually rained inside the cockpit
through the overhead fresh air vents. Abeam the numbers 36, I shut the
engine down, got the wheels out (got lucky & saved the bearings).
With the luxury of a 4000+ rwy, I was able to put it into a slip so I
could see out the left side window & get it on the ground (killed a
lot of grass from the oil). The engine was overhauled 400 hrs earlier
& it seemed that they didn't safety wire the crankcase plug which
retained the little prop governor driveshaft at the front of the
engine. Having flown the Lance in a lot of IMC, night, over mountains,
out to the Bahamas, etc, I kinda shake when I think of other times it
could have let go!

I have instructed "the impossible turn" back to the rwy in my 172. As
others have said here, 60 deg bank worked best for me. The teardrop
turn involves a total of 270deg of heading change. In standard
conditions, 400' - 450' agl was a comfortable minimum altitude. I
certainly don't advocate teaching this emergency maneuver as a part of
primary training due to the vagaries of reaction time, density
altitude. etc; but its a fun exercise if approached carefully & only
with someone who has had spin training & knows what rudder pedals are
for.

john

"john" wrote in message
...
snip

had a prop governor drive failure in a PA32 (T-tail Lance) after T/O
from Port St. Joe FL, a 4230 x 65 grass strip. Took off from 18 & was
climbing through 600' agl on downwind when what I thought was rain
began to spray on the windshield. Trouble was, there wasn't a cloud in
the sky. As I was 3/4 of the way on downwind the little idler shaft
driving the governor spit out behind the flywheel & it puked 10-11 qt
of oil out the front. The oil actually rained inside the cockpit
through the overhead fresh air vents. Abeam the numbers 36, I shut the
engine down, got the wheels out (got lucky & saved the bearings).
With the luxury of a 4000+ rwy, I was able to put it into a slip so I
could see out the left side window & get it on the ground (killed a
lot of grass from the oil). The engine was overhauled 400 hrs earlier
& it seemed that they didn't safety wire the crankcase plug which
retained the little prop governor driveshaft at the front of the
engine. Having flown the Lance in a lot of IMC, night, over mountains,
out to the Bahamas, etc, I kinda shake when I think of other times it
could have let go!

I have instructed "the impossible turn" back to the rwy in my 172. As
others have said here, 60 deg bank worked best for me. The teardrop
turn involves a total of 270deg of heading change. In standard
conditions, 400' - 450' agl was a comfortable minimum altitude. I
certainly don't advocate teaching this emergency maneuver as a part of
primary training due to the vagaries of reaction time, density
altitude. etc; but its a fun exercise if approached carefully & only
with someone who has had spin training & knows what rudder pedals are
for.

john

Go up a few thousand feet and practice where there's some room.

A few years back I had the delightful opportunity to attend a reunion of B24
pilots from the Ploesti raid.
IIRC they were the Crusaders, the 392nd bomb group.
I shook the hand of a pilot who "dead sticked" a B24.

H.
N502TB

"altekocker" wrote in message ...
I did fly gliders for awhile. Then, after I'd acquired about 250 hours asel,
during a BFR in a 182, we were at 400 feet on takeoff when my instructor
reached over and took the key out of the mag switch.

I would hit this Motherf*****r so hard and often, he never would done
that agin to anyone. Regards, Art

Seth
Comanche N8100R

"Rocky" wrote in message
om...
Aside from glider pilots.... how many of you have ever experienced an
engine out dead stick landing? Care to talk about it? I've done quite
a few of them. Some were intentional, some were during training, and
some happened at the most inopportune time with mechanical failures of
one sort or other. This included helicopters and airplanes.