Gliding risk....

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 11:24:12 AM UTC-8, wrote:
With apologies for lack of context:
This is one of the DUMBEST threads I have followed

Not dumb. Thought provoking. Anyone who hasn't considered the risks of soaring is in denial...

All well said, Chip.

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 2:24:12 PM UTC-5, wrote:
With apologies for lack of context:
This is one of the DUMBEST threads I have followed

Not dumb. Thought provoking. Anyone who hasn't considered the risks of soaring is in denial.

I grew up hearing my father repeat the mantra that "the most dangerous part of soaring is driving to and from the airport." He was killed in a glider crash 15 years after I soloed. Six years later, my best friend died in another crash. I’ve known 16 other casualties, plus more I never met. Last Friday, I attended the wake of #18, a good pilot about my age who was careful and controlled.

I'm SO past the "he died doing what he loved" thing. It's probably true in many cases but the pilots are still dead, leaving families and friends. And if a missing man formation makes you feel better, great, but it does nothing to bring back someone you loved or treasured as a friend.

I also knew two guys who were killed in motorcycle crashes during this time (54 years), although I have no idea how many of my friends/acquaintances ride vs. fly. I recall only one person I met who was killed in a car crash.. I think comparing the risks of different activities is useful. But obviously we're not all making decisions based on minimizing risk.

There are ways to reduce the risk even in competition, which I think is probably riskier than doing rides around the gliderport. Eight of "my" 18 died at contests (44%) with another five arguably practicing for it. All were experienced, mature, high-time pilots. Medical factors may have been a factor in at least four cases but often it’s tough to make that call, although sometimes we’re tempted because it makes us feel better about the genuine risks we incur.

The safest thing is not flying at all. I’ve considered that. I’ve been away from soaring three times for multi-year periods (unrelated to risk) and come back every time after considering the pro’s and con’s. I still love soaring but the risk is always there. I’ve never been cavalier about the danger but I’m probably more careful now than I was 50 years ago. I think our community addresses safety much better than in the past. But--I concede that if soaring were 100% risk free (a la Condor, which I enjoy), it wouldn’t be as compelling. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing!

Chip Bearden
JB

Thanks for your thoughtful contribution, Chip!
Out of curiosity: is this a unique American issue? How does the US compare to other soaring nations? Maybe we can learn something from a comparison.
Does anyone have data on that?

Uli
'AS'

On Tuesday, November 5, 2019 at 11:24:12 AM UTC-8, wrote:
With apologies for lack of context:
This is one of the DUMBEST threads I have followed

Not dumb. Thought provoking. Anyone who hasn't considered the risks of soaring is in denial.

I grew up hearing my father repeat the mantra that "the most dangerous part of soaring is driving to and from the airport." He was killed in a glider crash 15 years after I soloed. Six years later, my best friend died in another crash. I’ve known 16 other casualties, plus more I never met. Last Friday, I attended the wake of #18, a good pilot about my age who was careful and controlled.

I'm SO past the "he died doing what he loved" thing. It's probably true in many cases but the pilots are still dead, leaving families and friends. And if a missing man formation makes you feel better, great, but it does nothing to bring back someone you loved or treasured as a friend.

I also knew two guys who were killed in motorcycle crashes during this time (54 years), although I have no idea how many of my friends/acquaintances ride vs. fly. I recall only one person I met who was killed in a car crash.. I think comparing the risks of different activities is useful. But obviously we're not all making decisions based on minimizing risk.

There are ways to reduce the risk even in competition, which I think is probably riskier than doing rides around the gliderport. Eight of "my" 18 died at contests (44%) with another five arguably practicing for it. All were experienced, mature, high-time pilots. Medical factors may have been a factor in at least four cases but often it’s tough to make that call, although sometimes we’re tempted because it makes us feel better about the genuine risks we incur.

The safest thing is not flying at all. I’ve considered that. I’ve been away from soaring three times for multi-year periods (unrelated to risk) and come back every time after considering the pro’s and con’s. I still love soaring but the risk is always there. I’ve never been cavalier about the danger but I’m probably more careful now than I was 50 years ago. I think our community addresses safety much better than in the past. But--I concede that if soaring were 100% risk free (a la Condor, which I enjoy), it wouldn’t be as compelling. Cognitive dissonance is a wonderful thing!

Chip Bearden
JB

Chip,

That would be nice if that was the intent of this thread, but it isn't. It is entirely about making you feel anxious about flying. I don't particularly care whether flying is more or less dangerous than motorcycle riding because I don't ride motorcycles. And, even if I did, how would that make me be a safer pilot? I gave up flying in site contests (OLC is different) because I was almost killed in one, and decided the benefit didn't justify the risk. Some pilots become very aggressive while flying in a contest.

Tom

Another good article is this one by Martin Hellman:

https://ee.stanford.edu/~hellman/soa...2007_talk.html

In particular, I thought this quote was interesting for self assessment.

"Many years ago, I heard an expert on industrial safety give a talk in which he noted that for every fatality, there were roughly ten injury accidents; for every injury accident, there were roughly ten property damage accidents; and for every property damage accidents, there were about ten "scares" or near accidents"

^That's the best response in this whole thread.

On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 5:49:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
For those who haven’t seen it....

https://chessintheair.com/the-risk-o...-what-we-love/

Something that no one addressed is how safe aviation can be. Commercial flight operations, operate under constraints of economics and time schedules, yet the carriers have an outstanding safety record. I never feel safer than when I am flying a helicopter, they don't glide well and every part has to work. Responsibility for safety in soaring and general aviation, largely lays with the pilot and even the choices made before driving to the airport. Every once in a while the breath of a zephyr will take it's fare, but that was always destined to be. After watching many shows of "Air Disaster", "Why Planes Crash"... where the ATP pilots made basic pilotage errors, I will continue to both feel and be safe, flying a glider by merely being a current engaged pilot.

On 11/19/2019 9:24 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 5:49:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
For those who haven’t seen it....

https://chessintheair.com/the-risk-o...-what-we-love/
Something that no one addressed is how safe aviation can be. Commercial flight operations, operate under constraints of economics and time schedules, yet the carriers have an outstanding safety record. I never feel safer than when I am flying a helicopter, they don't glide well and every part has to work. Responsibility for safety in soaring and general aviation, largely lays with the pilot and even the choices made before driving to the airport. Every once in a while the breath of a zephyr will take it's fare, but that was always destined to be. After watching many shows of "Air Disaster", "Why Planes Crash"... where the ATP pilots made basic pilotage errors, I will continue to both feel and be safe, flying a glider by merely being a current engaged pilot.


....And continuing to exercise good airmanship.Â* It seems to me that
most, if not all, of the fatal accidents are the result of poor
airmanship.Â* There is usually a series of poor decisions leading up to
the accident and, when the accident is survived, the pilot usually makes
excuses for what happened rather than accepting the blame for his
decisions.Â* I salute the gent who admitted to bad decisions leading to
his crash in the Nevada desert after passing many safe options.Â* There's
only so many times you can poke the bear before you get bit.Â* (Bad
grammar intended).
--
Dan, 5J

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 8:33:59 AM UTC-8, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 11/19/2019 9:24 AM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 5:49:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
For those who haven’t seen it....

https://chessintheair.com/the-risk-o...-what-we-love/
Something that no one addressed is how safe aviation can be. Commercial flight operations, operate under constraints of economics and time schedules, yet the carriers have an outstanding safety record. I never feel safer than when I am flying a helicopter, they don't glide well and every part has to work. Responsibility for safety in soaring and general aviation, largely lays with the pilot and even the choices made before driving to the airport. Every once in a while the breath of a zephyr will take it's fare, but that was always destined to be. After watching many shows of "Air Disaster", "Why Planes Crash"... where the ATP pilots made basic pilotage errors, I will continue to both feel and be safe, flying a glider by merely being a current engaged pilot.


...And continuing to exercise good airmanship.Â* It seems to me that
most, if not all, of the fatal accidents are the result of poor
airmanship.Â* There is usually a series of poor decisions leading up to
the accident and, when the accident is survived, the pilot usually makes
excuses for what happened rather than accepting the blame for his
decisions.Â* I salute the gent who admitted to bad decisions leading to
his crash in the Nevada desert after passing many safe options.Â* There's
only so many times you can poke the bear before you get bit.Â* (Bad
grammar intended).
--
Dan, 5J

In this case the bear was poked only once. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-WWdE1_RW0
Some airman can poke the bear more than once, but...

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:24:11 AM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 at 5:49:22 PM UTC-7, wrote:
For those who haven’t seen it....

https://chessintheair.com/the-risk-o...-what-we-love/

Something that no one addressed is how safe aviation can be. Commercial flight operations, operate under constraints of economics and time schedules, yet the carriers have an outstanding safety record.

Strict procedures and limited pilot autonomy. Airline pilots flying general aviation aircraft crash at about the same rate as non-pro pilots.

I have to retrain most airline pilots when they jump to gliders. They loose most all their stick n rudder skills. Airline guys are “pro’s� but only at airline work. I have found the flying they do has very little application to soaring.