Gear Warning

Don Johnstone wrote:

It is not just a malfunction even a real warning at
that height can distract enough from 'flying the aeroplane'
to turn an incident into a serious crash. I have never
heard of anyone being seriously injured or killed as
the result of a wheels up. There have been accidents
involving serious injury as the result of undercarriage
warnings.

This seems to be a UK problem, not a US problem. Have other countries
experienced the UK situation? Do other national gliding organizations
recommend against gear warning devices (the SSA in the US does not)? Are
there any US pilots that wish they had not installed a gear warning device?


Pilots that don't check their spoilers until close
to the ground: this
seems like a training issue or self-discipline issue,
either about
pre-landing checks, or very marginal returns to the
airport.


Marginal glides are very common in competitions.

The US is working on this problem, at least for the final glide. The
major concern is the marginal glide, not the possibility of an accident
caused by a gear warning device. I imagine an attempt to ban gear
warning devices from contests would be even more unpopular the new ELT
requirement!


Perhaps pilots
with gear warnings should occasionally practice this
at altitude,
opening the spoilers with the gear up, then lowering
the gear.


There is a world of difference between deliberately
leaving the gear selection to very late to achieve
the best glide and being startled by a sudden loud
noise in the cockpit. It is the unexpected and the
'instinctive' reaction that is the root of the problem.

I can't say for sure practicing would be effective, but I think it would
help. We practice for other unexpected things, like rope breaks.


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

"Frankly, I think we should be a lot more concerned about the lack of a
"unlocked spoiler" alarm, or "canopy unlatched" alarm, than the
potential injuries caused by a gear up alarm. Unlocked spoilers and
unlatched canopies have caused far more accidents than gear warning
systems. "



This would be especially true if you look at the canopy design on the
new LS-11 that's mentioned just a few articles away on RAS. If that
sucker isn't locked it's gonna be GONE and if it hits the tail it's
going to make a mighty mess of things.

"It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the
airspeed
exceeds 25 knots."

The same conditions are satisfied for landing approach with the gear
down. I expect the answer is that the 302, containing a full airdata
and GPS system, can easily determine that a takeoff has started.
Indeed, it does that to start the logger function.

I use the airbrake warning of the 302 as well. It usually bitches at
me for just one cycle on takeoff as I always use the airbrakes until I
have good aileron control.

Andy

Andy wrote:

"It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the
airspeed
exceeds 25 knots."

The same conditions are satisfied for landing approach with the gear
down. I expect the answer is that the 302, containing a full airdata
and GPS system, can easily determine that a takeoff has started.
Indeed, it does that to start the logger function.

I wrote that poorly. This is what the manual says: "When airspeed rises
above 25 knots, the alarm sounds". Just having the airspeed above 25
knots won't do it, as you note, it is the "rising above".

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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

Eric Greenwell wrote:


How does it tell the difference between takeoff - gear down,
spoilers open and landing - gear down, spoilers open?

It triggers the warning when the spoilers are unlocked and the airspeed
exceeds 25 knots. From the Cambridge manual:


I don't quite follow this. I land with an airspeed over 25
knots and I take off with an airspeed over 25 knots. That
would make it sound when landing with the gear down,
airspeed above 25 knots, and brakes open - i.e., the normal
approach. Does it watch to see if the airspeed was first
below 25 knots? Does it cut off when above 35 knots and
only sound during the takeoff roll?

The trigger isn't the airspeed value, but the rise in airspeed from
below 25 knot to above 25 knots. This happens only during the takeoff
roll. My apologies for not stating this clearly the first time. The
system does work well, and none of the pilots I know that are using it
get false alarms during flight or landing.


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Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

At 05:48 17 November 2005, Andy Blackburn wrote:
At 21:54 16 November 2005, Eric Greenwell wrote:

If it was...your wife's voice on the recording do you

think you would still filter it out?

Wow, nobody bit on this one?

9B

I am married - of course I filter out what she is saying
most of the time, I would go bonkers other wise.
Luckily she dosnt read this site ):-

For what its worth, for many years now as I transition to a new
glider, one of the first things I add is two small squares of colored
plastic tape, a green block at the end of the "gear down and locked"
end of the handle travel, and a red block at the "gear retracted" end
of the handle travel.

As I turn final, I will often take a quick glance at the gear lever to
make sure it is at the "green" end.

Bob

On 18 Nov 2005 16:45:40 GMT, Nyal Williams
wrote:

There is a solution to this problem; I learned it the
hard way. Say to yourself 'The gear HANDLE is at the
gear-down ICON. A fellow in Minden told me this beforehand.
I didn't pay a lot of attention. I paid a lot of
money. Now I use this phrase religiously.


I switched between three new to me gliders in 4 days.
The retract movement was in opposite directions on
two of them. I went the lwrong way on the last flight.
Use the words HANDLE and ICON.



At 22:24 16 November 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:
I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another
colleague
return from a flight with gear extended then retract
it on final as he
went through his pre-landing checks!

Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the
first glider I
owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing
checklist,
operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then
heard a load beeping
noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took
a fair bit of
contemplation to recognize that the glider might have
a gear warning
system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols
allowed me to solve
the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten
to retract
the gear after release...

Marc

I fly with a gear warning and several times it has told me that I had
lowered the U/C but not locked it home properly.

On the other side I personally know two very experienced pilots on the
types they were flying who happily landed with no wheel despite the
incessant beeping.

Personally I think the BGA is right in that I'd much rather land with
the wheel up than stall at 10 feet up despite the cost that could ensue.
Mind you my Astir would probably win even if I landed on the tarmac :-)

Cheers

Robin

In message , Bob Gibbons
writes
For what its worth, for many years now as I transition to a new
glider, one of the first things I add is two small squares of colored
plastic tape, a green block at the end of the "gear down and locked"
end of the handle travel, and a red block at the "gear retracted" end
of the handle travel.

As I turn final, I will often take a quick glance at the gear lever to
make sure it is at the "green" end.

Bob

On 18 Nov 2005 16:45:40 GMT, Nyal Williams
wrote:

There is a solution to this problem; I learned it the
hard way. Say to yourself 'The gear HANDLE is at the
gear-down ICON. A fellow in Minden told me this beforehand.
I didn't pay a lot of attention. I paid a lot of
money. Now I use this phrase religiously.


I switched between three new to me gliders in 4 days.
The retract movement was in opposite directions on
two of them. I went the lwrong way on the last flight.
Use the words HANDLE and ICON.



At 22:24 16 November 2005, Marc Ramsey wrote:
Mike the Strike wrote:
I prefer check lists, but must note I have seen another
colleague
return from a flight with gear extended then retract
it on final as he
went through his pre-landing checks!

Same thing happened to me on my first flight in the
first glider I
owned. On pattern entry I went through my pre-landing
checklist,
operated the gear handle, opened the spoilers, then
heard a load beeping
noise. Closed the spoilers, beeping stopped. It took
a fair bit of
contemplation to recognize that the glider might have
a gear warning
system. A quick glance at the gear position symbols
allowed me to solve
the mystery while still plenty high. I must have forgotten
to retract
the gear after release...

Marc






--
Robin Birch

Personally I think the BGA is right in that I'd much rather land with
the wheel up than stall at 10 feet up despite the cost that could ensue.

The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for a landing without
opening the spoilers for the first time (when the warning would go off)
at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens much earlier when
it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a safe landing.

At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it would be best to leave
the gear where it is.

Tony V.

Tony Verhulst wrote:

The point is that very, very, few flights arrive for a landing without
opening the spoilers for the first time (when the warning would go off)
at 10 ft off the ground. Much more often that happens much earlier when
it's quite safe to lower the gear and still make a safe landing.

At 10 feet, I would agree that for most pilots it would be best to leave
the gear where it is.

I agree. It seems to me that the BGA's recommendation is poorly thought
out. Every other sphere of aviation with a retractable gear has made
warning systems compulsory and while gear errors still occur the
frequency is quite low. In particular, the warning system is not blamed
for the accident - which is the topsy-turvy logic of the BGA's policy.

In most of aviation, accidents involving gear warnings are (rightly)
attributed to poor pilot training or lack of familiarity/recency on type
and something is done about the training system and the pilot's competence.

Blaming the warning system is irrational.

Graeme Cant




Tony V.