Help me clear up my brain fart

"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs
during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL,
you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this
is really twisted up in my head.

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Thanks,
Ekim

I'll bet you had a young, relatively low time instructor.

Slips for landing are common and safe. I use them all the time. Well, not
all the time, but I like to come in high and slip away excess altitude. That
way, I always have the field made no matter what the engine decides to do.

Keep the ball centered in cruise and in turns, unless you're slipping in a
turn. A lot of times I throw in a little top rudder in the base to final
turn to bleed off excess altitude. You don't want to skid in a turn, but
when slipping the tendency when you get slow is for the high wing to drop,
thus bringing you automatically into a wings level attitude. If you're
skidding, the bottom wing can drop out and you can end up upside down in a
hurry. Not fun at 1000' agl. Just watch your speed, don't get too slow and
you'll be fine. And of course the ball will be out of the box when you're
slipping.

And unless you're flying a B52 or an Ercoupe, you'll have to slip with the
ball out of the center to land in a crosswind unless you feel like folding
up your landing gear. Remember, a good laning is any one you can walk away
from. A great landing means you get to use the plane again.

20 degrees of bank is pretty conservative. You'd have to use airliner
patterns with that shallow a turn, which will put you way out of gliding
range to the runway. Not safe at all. As long as you keep your turns
coordinated, maostly being careful not to skid (ball towards the high wing)
30 degrees is common. I often go 45 degrees in the pattern, but I fly the
same plane all the time (mine) and it's more forgiving in the stall than
most.

JMHO, and worth what ou paid for it.

mike regish


"Ekim" wrote in message
om...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs
during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL,
you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this
is really twisted up in my head.

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Thanks,
Ekim

I used to keep my pattern turns to 15 degrees and could fly tight, make the
airfield if the engine quits, patterns with no problem. Not all planes will
do this but a 172 and a 152 will. Now that I have more experience, I go up
to 25 but keep to 20 most of the time.

Everything else you wrote, I agree with.

A good rule for the original poster to drill in his head:

If you overshoot the turn to final, take your eyes off the runway, look at
the instruments, nail the 20 degree bank angle, keep the ball centered, and
stabilize the airspeed at the proper number for the plane. Just hold that
until you are almost on the extension line and then turn on to final.
You'll be amazed in most cases how much room there is left to the threshold.
Focusing on the aircraft attitude instead of being late in the turn will
help avoid getting slow and when you overshoot.

If you did make your turn too close, getting back on centerline will get you
set up for a proper go around.

--
Roger Long

mike regish wrote in message
20 degrees of bank is pretty conservative. You'd have to use airliner
patterns with that shallow a turn, which will put you way out of gliding
range to the runway. Not safe at all.

In article ,
"Roger Long" om
wrote:

A good rule for the original poster to drill in his head:

If you overshoot the turn to final, take your eyes off the runway, look at
the instruments, nail the 20 degree bank angle, keep the ball centered, and
stabilize the airspeed at the proper number for the plane. Just hold that
until you are almost on the extension line and then turn on to final.
You'll be amazed in most cases how much room there is left to the threshold.
Focusing on the aircraft attitude instead of being late in the turn will
help avoid getting slow and when you overshoot.

While I agree with your intent that you shouldn't tighten the turn
trying to lineup, you should be able to fly a safe, coordinated turn
without "take your eyes off the runway, look at the instruments". On
the base to final turn is not the time to have your head in the cockpit.

--
Dale L. Falk

There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing around with airplanes.

http://home.gci.net/~sncdfalk/flying.html

On
the base to final turn is not the time to have your head in the cockpit.

Sure it is, if you are a low time student pilot trying to salvage an
overshot turn before you have developed a good feel for the plane. Use the
instruments to get your configuration and attitude right, then get your eyes
back outside. You should always be dividing your attention between inside
and outside.

What happens to low hours, and even high hours pilots when they are
stressed, is fixating on the view outside the plane and pushing the plane
into a stall spin trying to turn too tightly back to the runway centerline.
A short period of using the instruments to be sure airspeed, ball, and bank
are not out of safe limits isn't going to significantly increase the chances
of a midair. The final approach should have been cleared before the turn.
By the time an overshoot becomes an issue, the most probable midair will be
someone hitting you from behind and nobody is looking back there anyway.

Pilots, especially students, should be checking airspeed, etc. all through
the pattern. What I'm really saying is that just after you realize that
you've overshot is an important time to do this again. Don't depart from
the airspeed / bank parameters you've established for the pattern in order
to salvage a botched turn. Just stick with the program and you'll probably
find there is still plenty of time to make the runway. If not, a go around
is always a good thing to practice.

--
Roger Long

"Roger Long" om wrote in
message ...
[...] You should always be dividing your attention between inside
and outside.

IMHO, not even close. Not for VFR flight.

The airplane is perfectly flyable without ANY reference to the instruments,
or anything inside the airplane. Turning base to final is no time to be
wasting ANY effort looking at instruments, and is certainly no time to be
attempting to use the instruments as feedback for control inputs.

A pilot who cannot judge bank angle and coordination without consulting the
turn coordinator and attitude indicator is one who needs to get back to the
basics.

What happens to low hours, and even high hours pilots when they are
stressed, is fixating on the view outside the plane and pushing the plane
into a stall spin trying to turn too tightly back to the runway
centerline.

They only do that if they fail to keep the airplane coordinated. One does
not need to consult the instrument panel in order to keep the airplane
coordinated.

[...] Pilots, especially students, should be checking airspeed, etc. all
through
the pattern.

Again, not necessary at all. It's all well and good to keep an eye on
things, of course. But any pilot should be able to go extended periods of
time in the pattern without looking at the ASI or any other instrument.
Airspeed in particular should be second-nature. Pitch and power will result
in the desired airspeed, and a pilot familiar with the airplane knows what
pitch and power to set in the pattern. Additionally, aircraft noise and
control feel gives you reasonably good information about airspeed (within
five knots or so).

I check my airspeed indicator maybe a couple of times before turning final,
and then maybe two or three more times while flying final, assuming
everything else is going fine. It's certainly not a significant part of my
visual scan. The vast majority of my visual scan is devoted to looking
outside the airplane.

Pete

Roger Long wrote:

Sure it is, if you are a low time student pilot trying to salvage an
overshot turn before you have developed a good feel for the plane.

Hi Roger,

Just "my opinion". but salvage and student in the same sentence is a bad
choice of words.

If the low time student overshot the turn to the point where the word
salvage comes into play, I would suggest just going around and trying
again.....

Allen
(who is not a CFI).

Roger

EKM listed what he was told as a student. Those figures are of course
very conservative but used to get an individual up and flying in a
safe manner. As one get more time in the air and more experience, he
can adjust them quite a bit and still survive.

All in all I agree with what you said so put me on the plus side :O)

Tail wind on base.
Overshooting final.
Slow in final turn or on final are things to be avoided or you under
stand how to handle them.

Slip, airspeed and G's are all interrelated to safe flying especially
in the pattern.

Big John


On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 13:43:27 GMT, "Roger Long"
om wrote:

I used to keep my pattern turns to 15 degrees and could fly tight, make the
airfield if the engine quits, patterns with no problem. Not all planes will
do this but a 172 and a 152 will. Now that I have more experience, I go up
to 25 but keep to 20 most of the time.

Everything else you wrote, I agree with.

A good rule for the original poster to drill in his head:

If you overshoot the turn to final, take your eyes off the runway, look at
the instruments, nail the 20 degree bank angle, keep the ball centered, and
stabilize the airspeed at the proper number for the plane. Just hold that
until you are almost on the extension line and then turn on to final.
You'll be amazed in most cases how much room there is left to the threshold.
Focusing on the aircraft attitude instead of being late in the turn will
help avoid getting slow and when you overshoot.

If you did make your turn too close, getting back on centerline will get you
set up for a proper go around.

Whoa. I do all that stuff. It's worked for me for a long time. Use the
controls to make the airplane do what you want it to do. Maybe go
out with an "experienced" CFI and explore some of those things in
more depth so you understand them.


"Ekim" wrote in message
om...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs
during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL,
you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this
is really twisted up in my head.

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Thanks,
Ekim

One thing is for sure with that kind of training experience, you will never,
ever be able to fly a conventional gear aircraft. It's getting more
unfortunate that CFIs do not have to have a tailwheel check out before
applying the trade. Their lack of experience is robbing the aviation world
of half the fun. Just try a crab landing with the CG behind the main gears
and see what happens. R Little

--


----------------------------------------------------
This mailbox protected from junk email by Matador
from MailFrontier, Inc. http://info.mailfrontier.com

"Ekim" wrote in message
om...
"Never cross control!!!"
"Keep that ball centered!"
"Never use more than 20 degrees bank!"
"Too high on final - go around. Never slip unless its an emergency
landing."

These are things that were hammered in my head by my numerous CFIs
during pattern training as a student pilot. Now that I have my PPL,
you would think I should have this understood. Unfortunately, now this
is really twisted up in my head.

Was all that preaching JUST to reduce the chance of invoking a deadly
spin in case the wings are accidentally stalled? It seems to all
contradict everything about slips on final and the famous
"low-wing-into-the-wind" crosswind landings?

In my mind, as long as I keep my airspeed sufficiently high and keep
the nose pointed down, (ie. keep my AOA under control) things like a
steeper banks and routine slip to landings should be relatively safe.
Right?

Thanks,
Ekim