Can ADS-B provide position information for Search and Rescue?

On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 11:13:58 AM UTC-8, Sarah wrote:
In that case, either Powerflarm or something like the cheaper $300 TRX-1000 would be able to receive 1090es and feed a common FLARM compatible glider display. Beware though - you would not receive air-air UAT data directly.

No. Unfortunately this is not correct.

The PowerFLARM does not understand how to process a TIS-B (or ADS-R) message.

Ah, too bad. I did not know TIS-B messages are not properly decoded by Powerflarm. PF must then only correctly parse air-air 1090es squawks. Thanks for the clarification.

On a related question, if someone were to connect an uncertified GPS source to a 1090es transponder, with the intention of appearing on others PF displays.... how often would the transponder send this data? Only when interrogated (ie never, out of Radar coverage/TCAS ping range) or often, for each GPS position string? If the latter, this may have power consumption implications.

ADS-B Out data is always sent about once per second (well assuming you have it turned on and its working OK). The data sent from even a Mode-S interrtogation is different from the ADS-B 1090ES data.

The Power consumption implication on broadcast are insignificant. The issue of adding GPS to say a current Trig transponder is the power consumption of the GPS itself. Some certified GPS units can have relatively high power consumption. Transponders are being interrogated all the time, by SSR, TCAS and TCAD systems. All that stuff can add to power consumption but the interrogation rates there can be orders of magnitude higher than the ~1/second ADS-B Output.

[snip]

On Friday, February 17, 2017 at 8:44:40 PM UTC-8, Paul Villinski wrote:

Are there currently any glider flight computer programs that will display TIS-B?

I am watching xcsoar to perhaps be the first.

Using Avare and dongle too. I find they always broadcast the weather even if you are not getting traffic. Very handy when getting home.

On Saturday, February 18, 2017 at 10:56:10 AM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:

The Stratux for FLARM protocol stuff was really people tinkering with ideas and I don't think it went anywhere.


Yup. It's not ready for non-programmers/hardware geeks.

Andy

On 02/18/2017 10:44 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:30:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they
need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates.

1) ADS-B ground stations logging data would need to receive ADS-B down
to near ground level to get close to the crash site. A glider can travel
a long distance from the altitudes mentioned as ground-station receive
floor in this thread.

I think people don't appreciate how extensive the FlightAware network
really is. I've tracked traffic down to landing, and then taxiing back
to their hangar from 30 miles away. Would be interesting if Sarah went
to flightaware.com, put in her N number, and saw what data the system
has on her flights.

The system even has some capability of tracking Mode S targets with
triangulation, although with reduced accuracy and coverage.



2) FLARM can assist in SAR (and has done a number of times). This requires
other gliders flying in FLARM-range of the crash, otherwise the search
area will not be narrowed to a helpful size. And the FLARM log files need
to be promptly recovered from gliders in the area and forwarded to FLARM
for analysis.

On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 9:08:38 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
On 02/18/2017 10:44 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:30:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they
need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates.

1) ADS-B ground stations logging data would need to receive ADS-B down
to near ground level to get close to the crash site. A glider can travel
a long distance from the altitudes mentioned as ground-station receive
floor in this thread.

I think people don't appreciate how extensive the FlightAware network
really is. I've tracked traffic down to landing, and then taxiing back
to their hangar from 30 miles away. Would be interesting if Sarah went
to flightaware.com, put in her N number, and saw what data the system
has on her flights.

The system even has some capability of tracking Mode S targets with
triangulation, although with reduced accuracy and coverage.


I'm not sure what point you are making. Flightaware tracking for flights without an IFR flight plan is next to useless.

Airport surface movement tracking at an airport that has ADS-B ground station coverage does not relate to say mountainous areas where lots of glider fly that might have large areas of poor ADS-B coverage. Like around parts of the CA/NV great Basin. ]

The original question of how useful is this really comes down to where you are flying and what accident/landout/SAR scenarios you are trying to mitigate. I really don't see the point of worrying too much about ADS-B for this.. With InReach tracking available at relatively low cost, and supporting text messaging (handy for non-emergency landouts). Sure the FAA can pull up records of ADS-B flight tracks, if you happen to be in ground station coverage, How long that takes to get in SAR situation who knows, and if you think the glider just landed out, well good luck... just go get an InReach (and maybe consider a 406MHz PLB as backup). If you really really cared about this I'd go ask local SAR and FAA folks how they would use that data (for a VFR aircraft with no flight plan/no flight following) and how fast that data is available to SAR organizations.

On Monday, February 20, 2017 at 1:33:22 AM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 9:08:38 PM UTC-8, kinsell wrote:
On 02/18/2017 10:44 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:30:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they
need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates.

1) ADS-B ground stations logging data would need to receive ADS-B down
to near ground level to get close to the crash site. A glider can travel
a long distance from the altitudes mentioned as ground-station receive
floor in this thread.

I think people don't appreciate how extensive the FlightAware network
really is. I've tracked traffic down to landing, and then taxiing back
to their hangar from 30 miles away. Would be interesting if Sarah went
to flightaware.com, put in her N number, and saw what data the system
has on her flights.

The system even has some capability of tracking Mode S targets with
triangulation, although with reduced accuracy and coverage.


I'm not sure what point you are making. Flightaware tracking for flights without an IFR flight plan is next to useless.

Airport surface movement tracking at an airport that has ADS-B ground station coverage does not relate to say mountainous areas where lots of glider fly that might have large areas of poor ADS-B coverage. Like around parts of the CA/NV great Basin. ]

The original question of how useful is this really comes down to where you are flying and what accident/landout/SAR scenarios you are trying to mitigate. I really don't see the point of worrying too much about ADS-B for this. With InReach tracking available at relatively low cost, and supporting text messaging (handy for non-emergency landouts). Sure the FAA can pull up records of ADS-B flight tracks, if you happen to be in ground station coverage, How long that takes to get in SAR situation who knows, and if you think the glider just landed out, well good luck... just go get an InReach (and maybe consider a 406MHz PLB as backup). If you really really cared about this I'd go ask local SAR and FAA folks how they would use that data (for a VFR aircraft with no flight plan/no flight following) and how fast that data is available to SAR organizations.

Darryl, having done analysis on that data for business purposes I have to disagree. In fact, the network of receivers is very dense. There are a lot of enthusiasts with Stratux receivers uploading tracking data all the time. FAA is not able to track me reliably but the same is not true with individuals across USA with their Stratux devices connected to Flightaware.

You disagree with what exactly? Show us where you find ADS-B coverage via Flightaware of glider flights, especially in some of the poor FAA ADS-B coverage areas of say the great basin.

My main point is with alternate products available, thinking about ADS-B from a SAR perspective is a lot less important/just not that interesting.

Everything else is really dependent on what scenario you are trying to cover and where you fly. Without that thinking it's a near useless question to ask. Can ADS-B help? Sure it might. And sure it might not. The question needs to be where/how/when could it help and to answer that start looking at the coverage (and access to that data) where you fly.

Just for the record, I did look up my N number on FlightAware. Turns out I flew a straight out flight KLAF - KAZO, 233 KM at 257 KPH ! Not bad! Must be a record!

Just kidding - someone have misregistered their N-number.

I've found FlightAware pretty unreliable for VFR flights, even close to a metro class B.



On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 11:08:38 PM UTC-6, kinsell wrote:
On 02/18/2017 10:44 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:30:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they
need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates.

1) ADS-B ground stations logging data would need to receive ADS-B down
to near ground level to get close to the crash site. A glider can travel
a long distance from the altitudes mentioned as ground-station receive
floor in this thread.

I think people don't appreciate how extensive the FlightAware network
really is. I've tracked traffic down to landing, and then taxiing back
to their hangar from 30 miles away. Would be interesting if Sarah went
to flightaware.com, put in her N number, and saw what data the system
has on her flights.

The system even has some capability of tracking Mode S targets with
triangulation, although with reduced accuracy and coverage.



2) FLARM can assist in SAR (and has done a number of times). This requires
other gliders flying in FLARM-range of the crash, otherwise the search
area will not be narrowed to a helpful size. And the FLARM log files need
to be promptly recovered from gliders in the area and forwarded to FLARM
for analysis.

I just looked up my Phoenix N42EJ, which has flown about 400 hours with ADSB in
the last 3 years, including a flight from Florida. Flightaware had one flight
track for me, and that one was in Dec 2014.

Sarah wrote on 2/20/2017 2:37 PM:
Just for the record, I did look up my N number on FlightAware. Turns out I flew a straight out flight KLAF - KAZO, 233 KM at 257 KPH ! Not bad! Must be a record!

Just kidding - someone have misregistered their N-number.

I've found FlightAware pretty unreliable for VFR flights, even close to a metro class B.



On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 11:08:38 PM UTC-6, kinsell wrote:
On 02/18/2017 10:44 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:30:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Villinski wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they
need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and coordinates.

1) ADS-B ground stations logging data would need to receive ADS-B down
to near ground level to get close to the crash site. A glider can travel
a long distance from the altitudes mentioned as ground-station receive
floor in this thread.

I think people don't appreciate how extensive the FlightAware network
really is. I've tracked traffic down to landing, and then taxiing back
to their hangar from 30 miles away. Would be interesting if Sarah went
to flightaware.com, put in her N number, and saw what data the system
has on her flights.

The system even has some capability of tracking Mode S targets with
triangulation, although with reduced accuracy and coverage.



2) FLARM can assist in SAR (and has done a number of times). This requires
other gliders flying in FLARM-range of the crash, otherwise the search
area will not be narrowed to a helpful size. And the FLARM log files need
to be promptly recovered from gliders in the area and forwarded to FLARM
for analysis.

I see flights on 16 different days going back to July of last year for
your ship (I have an Enterprise account).

Then if I log out of my account, I see what you saw, just one old
flight. It says registered users see 4 months of history. Don't know
why it would show you one old flight if you're not registered. Must be
a bug.




On 02/20/2017 04:56 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
I just looked up my Phoenix N42EJ, which has flown about 400 hours with
ADSB in the last 3 years, including a flight from Florida. Flightaware
had one flight track for me, and that one was in Dec 2014.

Sarah wrote on 2/20/2017 2:37 PM:
Just for the record, I did look up my N number on FlightAware. Turns
out I flew a straight out flight KLAF - KAZO, 233 KM at 257 KPH ! Not
bad! Must be a record!

Just kidding - someone have misregistered their N-number.

I've found FlightAware pretty unreliable for VFR flights, even close
to a metro class B.



On Sunday, February 19, 2017 at 11:08:38 PM UTC-6, kinsell wrote:
On 02/18/2017 10:44 AM, Dave Nadler wrote:
On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 10:30:57 PM UTC-5, Paul Villinski
wrote:
Wondering if ADS-B equipped aircraft have any advantage should they
need search and rescue, given that they broadcast their ID and
coordinates.

1) ADS-B ground stations logging data would need to receive ADS-B down
to near ground level to get close to the crash site. A glider can
travel
a long distance from the altitudes mentioned as ground-station receive
floor in this thread.

I think people don't appreciate how extensive the FlightAware network
really is. I've tracked traffic down to landing, and then taxiing back
to their hangar from 30 miles away. Would be interesting if Sarah went
to flightaware.com, put in her N number, and saw what data the system
has on her flights.

The system even has some capability of tracking Mode S targets with
triangulation, although with reduced accuracy and coverage.



2) FLARM can assist in SAR (and has done a number of times). This
requires
other gliders flying in FLARM-range of the crash, otherwise the search
area will not be narrowed to a helpful size. And the FLARM log files
need
to be promptly recovered from gliders in the area and forwarded to
FLARM
for analysis.