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#21
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flaps again
In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
Michael Ash wrote: In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote: B A R R Y wrote: Vaughn Simon wrote: "WingFlaps" wrote in message news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short field and normal landings as part of you certificate? Not flapless. I had to. I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement. IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS ! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES) ! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing (ASEL and ASES) ! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL) ! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL) ! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES) ! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing (ASEL and ASES) ! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES) ! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES) ! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES) ! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES) ! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES) ! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES) Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? Yeah it's there and I've marked it below. But that doesn't mean you have to land with the gear up if the guy giving you the test tells you to. Right, but part of the expectation of the test is to follow it through as far as you can safely do so. When he pulls the power on you, you're not expected to *actually* land in some guy's field, but at the same time you don't smack his hand away from the throttle and keep going. I would expect that a simulated landing gear failure would consist of going through whatever checks are appropriate for that situation and making sure you handle that end of things in a reasonable manner. Since stuck flaps can be taken all the way to completion safely, there's no reason to stop early. -- Michael Ash Rogue Amoeba Software |
#22
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flaps again
In rec.aviation.student Roy Smith wrote:
In article , Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a PA-28) and refuse to move it :-) Ooh, you're mean. Seriously though, it seems to me that this is a better approach than simply announcing the failure. It's much more realistic and teaches the student to be adaptable when something doesn't work the way it should, instead of just changing the tune to follow the instructor. The big emergency us glider types just love to practice is low-altitude tow rope breaks. Instructors have you practice those by pulling the release knob on you with no advance warning. Makes a loud bang with the treetops awfully close. First time scared and surprised me so much I literally froze on the controls and probably would have died if I had been alone. Second time was a piece of cake. If you don't surprise your students in training then their first surprise is going to be a *real* emergency, and that's no good, so I'm all for your style of doing things. -- Michael Ash Rogue Amoeba Software |
#23
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flaps again
In rec.aviation.student B A R R Y wrote:
On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure. He announced the flap failure while asking for the ground control frequency on 2 mile final to New Haven. I told him I was too busy to pull out the AF/D, and would look up the correct frequency after landing. This was the correct answer. Cool, good to know I'm not totally off base. Those examiners are tricky devils. Thanks for the story. The rough equivalent in gliders is a no-spoiler landing, except that in any decently-performing glider, trying to land without spoilers is like trying to sink a body in the East River without concrete shoes: it just won't go down. My examiner had me fly a pattern using slip instead of spoilers until a point on short final where there was just no other way to make a decent landing, at which point he let me open them and land. I have done one landing with no spoilers (except when flaring, since I didn't want to float forever) in an older glider, and even there it was quite a challenge and took me two tries to get it right. I'm pretty sure that if it happened for real I could survive the experience but it wouldn't be pretty and might end up being expensive. -- Michael Ash Rogue Amoeba Software |
#24
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flaps again
In article ,
Michael Ash wrote: In rec.aviation.student Roy Smith wrote: In article , Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a PA-28) and refuse to move it :-) Ooh, you're mean. Seriously though, it seems to me that this is a better approach than simply announcing the failure. It's much more realistic and teaches the student to be adaptable when something doesn't work the way it should, instead of just changing the tune to follow the instructor. Exactly. It also teaches you to fly the damn airplane and not get distracted by little ****. Just about to turn base is no time to be going heads down in the cockpit or getting distracted. Declare you're landing without flaps? Fine. Declare you're exiting the pattern until you can sort this out? Fine. Give me a sharp poke in the ribs to get me to move my foot? Well, it's not the response I was hoping for, but it's not the worst you could do :-) Getting into an argument with me at the expense of your traffic scan? Not fine. The hardest part of dealing with any equipment failure is recognizing that it's happened. |
#25
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flaps again
OK, so I am missing something..
In large , more complex aircraft, I can see the difficulty landing without flaps. But in a 172 or a Warrior? ......with sufficient runway, and in strong winds, I sometimes prefer no flaps. My Warrior POH indicates flaps are to be used as needed, no flap landings are not indicated as requiring an emergency procedure... In training aircraft? Dave On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:32:23 -0500, Dudley Henriques wrote: Kobra wrote: Flyers, First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittinglI Have to ask now. y landed one day in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!" I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again. Everything went fine until our last landing. Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded off that his AS was way off and to fix it. Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17 inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps were fully retracted. He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in flat." That is what he did and we had no problems. I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection. This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator. He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem. Kobra C177RG PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come. As my good ole' buddy Chris Patterakis (ex-Thunderbird lead and general good guy) used to say, "We don't fly in a one cue world". This simple statement should be a large sign stapled on the door of every pilot's bedroom so they read it every day until it became a living part of their flying mindset. I honestly can't conceive of a situation in a light GA aircraft where a pilot could attempt lowering the flaps and not know immediately if they were in the equation. The cues available are just too many to ignore. You have the obvious visual check, and if that isn't available, the changes and/or lack of same in the aircraft's performance should become immediately apparent to a "tuned in" pilot. On the other hand, a flaps up landing should be part and parcel of every pilot's training curriculum and should be a non event should the need arise to make one. The bottom line on this is that there should have been instant recognition of the situation using any and all available cues and the situation assessed and acted on by a deliberate action either to land the airplane flaps up with all the expected behavior associated with that decision, or, if not enough time to set up or enough romm to do that, a go around should have been initiated and the problem investigated out of the pattern. Either way, this situation should have been handled in such a way that at no time during the approach was the airplane flying the pilot and not the other way around :-) |
#26
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flaps again
Dave wrote:
OK, so I am missing something.. In large , more complex aircraft, I can see the difficulty landing without flaps. But in a 172 or a Warrior? .....with sufficient runway, and in strong winds, I sometimes prefer no flaps. My Warrior POH indicates flaps are to be used as needed, no flap landings are not indicated as requiring an emergency procedure... In training aircraft? Dave On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 18:32:23 -0500, Dudley Henriques wrote: Kobra wrote: Flyers, First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittinglI Have to ask now. y landed one day in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. They I remembered out fast I came over the fence and controlling the airspeed was more difficult then ever before. I took a lot of heat from other pilots that basicly said, "How in the world could any pilot worth a darn EVER not realize that their flaps didn't come out! THAT would NEVER happen to ME!!" I thought I would relate a story that happened to my plane partner and I the other day. My partner hadn't flown in a while and we went out to do some maneuvers and some landings to get him current and proficient again. Everything went fine until our last landing. Throughout this last pattern I noticed that we were always fast on every leg. I admonished him to slow down and get down. He was some what distracted by a helicopter hovering just off the ground and off to the left side of the final approach course. I notice that he had 30 degrees of flaps in and he started to drift the IAS out of the white arc. I again sounded off that his AS was way off and to fix it. Then it hit me...how in the world could he have flaps 30 with 16 or 17 inches of MP at our decent rate and be out of the white arc. That is not possible. I looked over my right shoulder and saw the reason...the flaps were fully retracted. He did not notice and was attempting to fix the problem by pulling the power and trimming the nose up. (unwittingly setting himself up for a no flap landing as I did in VA). We were on short final and I hesitated to say anything as not to distract him at this critical time, but reflexively my mouth just blurted out, "Dude...I have some really bad news for you...you've got no flaps at all!" At first he wanted to go around, but the AS wasn't too bad and I said, "No...just keep this attitude and come in flat." That is what he did and we had no problems. I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild distractions in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each of three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided. He would have landed fast and long, braked hard and wondered why he had so much difficulty slowing down. He would not have realized what happened until and unless he did the next pre-flight and set the flaps to full for inspection. This was a new motor bought from Cessna. Turns out that one of the brushes was hanging up in it's housing and not making contact with the commutator. He widened the housing and that was the end of that problem. Kobra C177RG PS: and now Multi-engine, Multi-engine instrument, Multi-engine commercial rated!! whoa whooh!! Regionals...here I come. As my good ole' buddy Chris Patterakis (ex-Thunderbird lead and general good guy) used to say, "We don't fly in a one cue world". This simple statement should be a large sign stapled on the door of every pilot's bedroom so they read it every day until it became a living part of their flying mindset. I honestly can't conceive of a situation in a light GA aircraft where a pilot could attempt lowering the flaps and not know immediately if they were in the equation. The cues available are just too many to ignore. You have the obvious visual check, and if that isn't available, the changes and/or lack of same in the aircraft's performance should become immediately apparent to a "tuned in" pilot. On the other hand, a flaps up landing should be part and parcel of every pilot's training curriculum and should be a non event should the need arise to make one. The bottom line on this is that there should have been instant recognition of the situation using any and all available cues and the situation assessed and acted on by a deliberate action either to land the airplane flaps up with all the expected behavior associated with that decision, or, if not enough time to set up or enough romm to do that, a go around should have been initiated and the problem investigated out of the pattern. Either way, this situation should have been handled in such a way that at no time during the approach was the airplane flying the pilot and not the other way around :-) No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over the aspects of no flap landings with every student. I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student must be completely familiar with before solo. -- Dudley Henriques |
#27
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flaps again
In article ,
Dudley Henriques wrote: No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over the aspects of no flap landings with every student. I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student must be completely familiar with before solo. The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance implications. |
#28
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flaps again
Roy Smith wrote:
In article , Dudley Henriques wrote: No flap landings should be handled by instructors as simply another procedure to be learned. There's nothing earth shattering about a no flap landing, BUT and this is a BIG BUT HERE......there are aspects of a no flap landing that are very different from a landing using "flaps as required", so all CFI's should demonstrate no flap landings and go over the aspects of no flap landings with every student. I don't treat this situation as an emergency; simply something the student must be completely familiar with before solo. The issue with no flaps landings is not that the landing itself is an emergency, but that the pilot should recognize that the flaps didn't extend and adjust his plan accordingly. And understand the performance implications. Like many CFI's who came up during my period, (old people :-) I much preferred to teach no flap landings to students as BOTH a possible emergency AND an option that could be used by a good pilot who for a viable and safe reason wanted to land long for a far end turnoff on an exceptionally long runway for example. Many of the airplanes we flew as trainers had no flaps; i.e. Cubs, Colts, etc. You learned early on in these airplanes to fly the approach properly and with no "devices" to help you control the landing speed. These airplanes are still in use today and in many cases are priced low enough that many students becoming aircraft owners for the first time will end up purchasing an aircraft with no flaps. I personally know two pilots who own a J3 and a Piper Colt; each have no flaps. Flaps and their use are VERY aircraft specific. In some airplanes a POH might define a no flap landing as an emergency. Others simply alter the approach profile a bit. In the T38 Talon for example, (I use this as the airplane is extremely high performance and landing cfg is critical for the Talon) the procedure for a no flap landing is to add 15kts to the normal landing speed...period! No big deal at all. Landing a normal GA airplane with no flaps should not pose a good pilot any problems at all, and training should reflect this. The bottom line is that instructors should teach landings in a way that defines every one of them as a unique experience dealing with a unique and ever changing dynamic. No two landings that a pilot will make during an entire career will ever be exactly the same. Each landing carries its own individual fingerprint. No flaps can be an emergency landing or it can simply be a pilot's option. Either way, the pilot should be on top of it and have each individual landing planned based on current conditions existing for any given instant in time that pertain to THAT landing. -- Dudley Henriques |
#29
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flaps again
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ... On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure. Exactly! |
#30
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flaps again
Blueskies wrote:
"B A R R Y" wrote in message ... On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash wrote: Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"? My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure. Exactly! Then every landing made in a Piper Cub, Colt, or a Decathlon is an emergency? :-)) -- Dudley Henriques |
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