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#31
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Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote: Bob Gardner wrote: "Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down? Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned altitude". No, but you are leaving a previously assigned altitude which is your original point as I recall. And the point is that once cleared for the approach, you are also cleared to enter and leave all altitudes from that point until you are on the runway. My "original point" is that we should do what the AIM says with regard to reporting leaving assigned altitudes for a newly assigned altitude. The AIM says (paraphrasing) that you should report when leaving an assigned altitude *for a newly assigned altitude*. I viewed a clearance for a visual approach as a newly assigned altitude. As a result of this discussion, I no longer hold that view. I never viewed a falling glideslope needle as a newly assigned altitude. Dave Remove SHIRT to reply directly. |
#32
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"John Clonts" wrote in message ... 1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent descents? E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending 2000"? 2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will, right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000? 3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I report my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"? Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary... Are you in radar contact and do you have Mode C altitude reporting equipment? If yes to both of those, then you're already reporting. |
#33
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"Greg Esres" wrote in message ... Regardless of what the AIM says, the important question is what ATC uses these reports for. Controllers in the past have said that under some circumstances, they can use the pilot's report of leaving an altitude for separation purposes. However, a PD descent isn't one of them. Controllers have said that they cannot use a pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD descent/climb and therefore the reportis not useful. A pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD descent/climb cannot be used to assign the altitude reported leaving, but it can be used to assign an altitude that provides minimum vertical separation from that altitude, so it is still useful. (However, according to the .65, this isn't true in a NON-radar environment.) Where is that written? Perhaps the visual approach and cruise clearance fall into the same category? They are discretionary descents. |
#34
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"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message s.com... If you are cleared for an approach into an airport without radar approach service, the entire airport get shut down to IFR traffic until you cancel IFR, so spacing is a non-issue. That's not true. You can have multiple aircraft cleared for approach at airports not served by radar, you just have to provide separation. Radar isn't the only way to separate traffic. If you conduct a visual approach into a non-towered field and do not cancel IFR, again the airport remains shut down so spacing is a non-issue. You can have multiple aircraft cleared for visual approaches at non-towered fields. |
#35
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A pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD descent/climb cannot
be used to assign the altitude reported leaving, but it can be used to assign an altitude that provides minimum vertical separation from that altitude, so it is still useful. Hmmm...is there some section that expressly allows that, or is it allowed because not expressly forbidden? ;-) I would have interpreted the following section to apply to that scenario as well, since the implication is not to permit verbal reports to be sufficient for separation purposes, period, in PD descents. -------------snip------------------- b. Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously at that altitude is observed at or passing through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minima when: .... 3. The aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a climb/descent at pilot's discretion. -------------snip------------------- Can you shed light on the logic? Where is that written? -------------snip------------------- Non-Radar 6-6-2 Exceptions Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when: .... c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been: 1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot's discretion. -------------snip------------------- |
#36
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"Greg Esres" wrote in message ... A pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD descent/climb cannot be used to assign the altitude reported leaving, but it can be used to assign an altitude that provides minimum vertical separation from that altitude, so it is still useful. Hmmm...is there some section that expressly allows that, or is it allowed because not expressly forbidden? ;-) I would have interpreted the following section to apply to that scenario as well, since the implication is not to permit verbal reports to be sufficient for separation purposes, period, in PD descents. -------------snip------------------- b. Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously at that altitude is observed at or passing through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minima when: ... 3. The aircraft previously at that altitude has been issued a climb/descent at pilot's discretion. -------------snip------------------- Can you shed light on the logic? Where is that written? -------------snip------------------- Non-Radar 6-6-2 Exceptions Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when: ... c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been: 1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot's discretion. -------------snip------------------- Do you read the material you quote? |
#37
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Do you read the material you quote?
Normally. ;-) But the .65 has limited meaning for non-controllers, which is why it is helpful to have those with vast experience moving traffic, such as you, flesh out the application of various sections. |
#38
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"Greg Esres" wrote in message ... Non-Radar 6-6-2 Exceptions Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when: ... c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been: 1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot's discretion. Non-radar separation is not limited to non-radar environments. FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control Chapter 2. General Control Section 1. General 2-1-3. PROCEDURAL PREFERENCE a. Use automation procedures in preference to nonautomation procedures when workload, communications, and equipment capabilities permit. b. Use radar separation in preference to nonradar separation when it will be to an operational advantage and workload, communications, and equipment permit. c. Use nonradar separation in preference to radar separation when the situation dictates that an operational advantage will be gained. NOTE- One situation may be where vertical separation would preclude excessive vectoring. |
#39
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"Greg Esres" wrote in message ... Normally. ;-) But the .65 has limited meaning for non-controllers, which is why it is helpful to have those with vast experience moving traffic, such as you, flesh out the application of various sections. You questioned my statement, "A pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD descent/climb cannot be used to assign the altitude reported leaving, but it can be used to assign an altitude that provides minimum vertical separation from that altitude, so it is still useful." You asked if there was "some section that expressly allows that, or is it allowed because not expressly forbidden?" Your message included a quote of the pertinent paragraph! Paragraph 6-6-2 tells controllers to assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when the aircraft previously at the altitude has been issued a clearance permitting climb or descent at pilot's discretion. FAA Order 7110.65P Air Traffic Control Chapter 6. Nonradar Section 6. Vertical Separation 6-6-1. APPLICATION Assign an altitude to an aircraft after the aircraft previously at that altitude has reported leaving the altitude. PHRASEOLOGY- REPORT LEAVING/REACHING (altitude/flight level). REPORT LEAVING ODD/EVEN ALTITUDES/FLIGHT LEVELS. (If aircraft is known to be operating below the lowest useable flight level), SAY ALTITUDE. or (If aircraft is known to be operating at or above the lowest useable flight level), SAY FLIGHT LEVEL. or If aircraft's position relative to the lowest useable flight level is unknown), SAY ALTITUDE OR FLIGHT LEVEL. NOTE- Consider known aircraft performance characteristics, pilot furnished and/or Mode C detected information which indicate that climb/descent will not be consistent with the rates recommended in AIM. REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Procedural Preference, Para 2-1-3. FAAO 7110.65, Vertical Separation Minima, Para 4-5-1. FAAO 7110.65, Separation, Para 7-7-3. FAAO 7110.65, Separation, Para 7-8-3. FAAO 7110.65, Separation, Para 7-9-4. 6-6-2. EXCEPTIONS Assign an altitude to an aircraft only after the aircraft previously at that altitude has reported at or passing through another altitude separated from the first by the appropriate minimum when: a. Severe turbulence is reported. b. Aircraft are conducting military aerial refueling. REFERENCE- FAAO 7110.65, Military Aerial Refueling, Para 9-3-11. c. The aircraft previously at the altitude has been: 1. Issued a clearance permitting climb/descent at pilot's discretion. 2. Cleared to CRUISE (altitude). However, do not use Mode C to effect separation with an aircraft on a cruise clearance. NOTE- An aircraft assigned a cruise clearance is assigned a block of airspace from the minimum IFR altitude up to and including the assigned cruising altitude, and climb/descent within the block is at pilot's discretion. When the pilot verbally reports leaving an altitude in descent, he/she may not return to that altitude. REFERENCE- P/CG Term- Cruise. |
#40
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Dave Butler wrote:
Matthew S. Whiting wrote: Dave Butler wrote: Bob Gardner wrote: "Maintain 2200 until established, cleared for the ILS." Do you report leaving 2200 when the glideslope comes down? Nope, I don't. The glideslope coming down is not a "newly assigned altitude". No, but you are leaving a previously assigned altitude which is your original point as I recall. And the point is that once cleared for the approach, you are also cleared to enter and leave all altitudes from that point until you are on the runway. My "original point" is that we should do what the AIM says with regard to reporting leaving assigned altitudes for a newly assigned altitude. The AIM says (paraphrasing) that you should report when leaving an assigned altitude *for a newly assigned altitude*. Well, first, the AIM is advisory, not regulatory. However, I also agree that it is good practice to adhere to the AIM suggestions. I don't believe that the AIM section you are paraphrasing applies here as I believe that a visual approach essentially has given you a new altitude clearance, actually altitude range from where you are at the time of accepting the clearance down to the airport elevation and thus you are no longer leaving an assigned altitude. I viewed a clearance for a visual approach as a newly assigned altitude. As a result of this discussion, I no longer hold that view. I never viewed a falling glideslope needle as a newly assigned altitude. Yes, the visual approach is a newly assigned altitude range which goes clean down to the runway. Matt |
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