Winch Launch - Fatal

On Tue, 06 Dec 2016 08:27:58 -0800, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

What happened in this accident to cause the N3 to "flip over" in the
early stage of launch?

Read this:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...74a1317000923/
Schempp-Hirth_Nimbus-3_glider_G-EENN_06-13.pdf

Its the full AAIB report on this accident and contains full and useful
discussions about wing-drops during winch launches and of the importance
of cockpit layout with regard to interference between flying controls and
the hook release knob: both are relevant in this case.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

At 17:13 06 December 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
I saw that happen to a Nimbus II on aero tow back in the 90s. The pilot
induced a pitch oscillation (PIO) right at lift off, the glider pitched
up to near vertical, and rotated to the right dragging the wingtip and
cartwheeling. That time the pilot survived, though the fire department
trashed the glider cutting him out of the wreck.

On 12/6/2016 9:47 AM, Greg O'Hagan wrote:
At 16:27 06 December 2016, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
What happened in this accident to cause the N3 to "flip over" in the
early
stage of launch?

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 7:15:05 AM UTC-8, Jock Proudfoot
wrote:
At 14:06 06 December 2016, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

Footage of the accident, in which the victim was dragged upside
down along the runway, was recorded on the centre's CCTV and is
now being studied by accident investigators.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...pilot_killed_i
n_freak_accident_during_take_off/

See below.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...5274a131700092
3/Schempp-Hirth_Nimbus-3_glider_G-EENN_06-13.pdf


--
Dan, 5J

It can be hard to release in a schemmp if the stick is hard over to the
left.
So tie a short loop of parachute cord or similar round the release and keep
it
in your left hand .

At 19:13 06 December 2016, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:13 06 December 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
I saw that happen to a Nimbus II on aero tow back in the 90s.
The pilot
induced a pitch oscillation (PIO) right at lift off, the glider
pitched
up to near vertical, and rotated to the right dragging the wingtip
and
cartwheeling. That time the pilot survived, though the fire
department
trashed the glider cutting him out of the wreck.

On 12/6/2016 9:47 AM, Greg O'Hagan wrote:
At 16:27 06 December 2016, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
What happened in this accident to cause the N3 to "flip
over" in the
early
stage of launch?

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 7:15:05 AM UTC-8, Jock
Proudfoot
wrote:
At 14:06 06 December 2016, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

Footage of the accident, in which the victim was dragged
upside
down along the runway, was recorded on the centre's
CCTV and is
now being studied by accident investigators.


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...r_pilot_killed
_i
n_freak_accident_during_take_off/

See below.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...5422fd21e5274a
131700092
3/Schempp-Hirth_Nimbus-3_glider_G-EENN_06-13.pdf


--
Dan, 5J

It can be hard to release in a schemmp if the stick is hard over to
th
left.
So tie a short loop of parachute cord or similar round the release
and kee
it
in your left hand .

I am 6 feet tall and if I have the straps done up tight I find it
difficult to reach the release so I do what Jonathan has suggested
and have a loop of paracord secured to the release knob and round
my wrist. Having experienced difficulty in releasing the cable under
tension, using the knob or the cord I am not completely sure that
would work and I am not keen to find out.
I used the same system in my ASW17 for a different reason.

At 20:44 06 December 2016, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 19:13 06 December 2016, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:13 06 December 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
I saw that happen to a Nimbus II on aero tow back in the 90s.
The pilot
induced a pitch oscillation (PIO) right at lift off, the glider
pitched
up to near vertical, and rotated to the right dragging the wingtip
and
cartwheeling. That time the pilot survived, though the fire
department
trashed the glider cutting him out of the wreck.

On 12/6/2016 9:47 AM, Greg O'Hagan wrote:
At 16:27 06 December 2016, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
What happened in this accident to cause the N3 to "flip
over" in the
early
stage of launch?

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 7:15:05 AM UTC-8, Jock
Proudfoot
wrote:
At 14:06 06 December 2016, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

Footage of the accident, in which the victim was dragged
upside
down along the runway, was recorded on the centre's
CCTV and is
now being studied by accident investigators.


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...r_pilot_killed
_i
n_freak_accident_during_take_off/

See below.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...5422fd21e5274a
131700092
3/Schempp-Hirth_Nimbus-3_glider_G-EENN_06-13.pdf


--
Dan, 5J

It can be hard to release in a schemmp if the stick is hard over to
th
left.
So tie a short loop of parachute cord or similar round the release
and kee
it
in your left hand .

I am 6 feet tall and if I have the straps done up tight I find it
difficult to reach the release so I do what Jonathan has suggested
and have a loop of paracord secured to the release knob and round
my wrist. Having experienced difficulty in releasing the cable under
tension, using the knob or the cord I am not completely sure that
would work and I am not keen to find out.
I used the same system in my ASW17 for a different reason.

Update on schemmp
The brochure for the new V3 is out and the release as moved to the panel.

Schleicher has located their release high on lefthand side of cockpit wall for decades, right where it should be.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 12:45:07 PM UTC-8, Jonathon May wrote:
At 20:44 06 December 2016, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 19:13 06 December 2016, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:13 06 December 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
I saw that happen to a Nimbus II on aero tow back in the 90s.
The pilot
induced a pitch oscillation (PIO) right at lift off, the glider
pitched
up to near vertical, and rotated to the right dragging the wingtip
and
cartwheeling. That time the pilot survived, though the fire
department
trashed the glider cutting him out of the wreck.

On 12/6/2016 9:47 AM, Greg O'Hagan wrote:
At 16:27 06 December 2016, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
What happened in this accident to cause the N3 to "flip
over" in the
early
stage of launch?

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 7:15:05 AM UTC-8, Jock
Proudfoot
wrote:
At 14:06 06 December 2016, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

Footage of the accident, in which the victim was dragged
upside
down along the runway, was recorded on the centre's
CCTV and is
now being studied by accident investigators.


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...r_pilot_killed
_i
n_freak_accident_during_take_off/

See below.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...5422fd21e5274a
131700092
3/Schempp-Hirth_Nimbus-3_glider_G-EENN_06-13.pdf


--
Dan, 5J

It can be hard to release in a schemmp if the stick is hard over to
th
left.
So tie a short loop of parachute cord or similar round the release
and kee
it
in your left hand .

I am 6 feet tall and if I have the straps done up tight I find it
difficult to reach the release so I do what Jonathan has suggested
and have a loop of paracord secured to the release knob and round
my wrist. Having experienced difficulty in releasing the cable under
tension, using the knob or the cord I am not completely sure that
would work and I am not keen to find out.
I used the same system in my ASW17 for a different reason.

Update on schemmp
The brochure for the new V3 is out and the release as moved to the panel.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 4:44:16 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Schleicher has located their release high on lefthand side of cockpit wall for decades, right where it should be.

On Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 12:45:07 PM UTC-8, Jonathon May wrote:
At 20:44 06 December 2016, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 19:13 06 December 2016, Jonathon May wrote:
At 17:13 06 December 2016, Dan Marotta wrote:
I saw that happen to a Nimbus II on aero tow back in the 90s.
The pilot
induced a pitch oscillation (PIO) right at lift off, the glider
pitched
up to near vertical, and rotated to the right dragging the wingtip
and
cartwheeling. That time the pilot survived, though the fire
department
trashed the glider cutting him out of the wreck.

On 12/6/2016 9:47 AM, Greg O'Hagan wrote:
At 16:27 06 December 2016, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
What happened in this accident to cause the N3 to "flip
over" in the
early
stage of launch?

On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 7:15:05 AM UTC-8, Jock
Proudfoot
wrote:
At 14:06 06 December 2016, Jock Proudfoot wrote:

Footage of the accident, in which the victim was dragged
upside
down along the runway, was recorded on the centre's
CCTV and is
now being studied by accident investigators.


http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...r_pilot_killed
_i
n_freak_accident_during_take_off/

See below.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...5422fd21e5274a
131700092
3/Schempp-Hirth_Nimbus-3_glider_G-EENN_06-13.pdf


--
Dan, 5J

It can be hard to release in a schemmp if the stick is hard over to
th
left.
So tie a short loop of parachute cord or similar round the release
and kee
it
in your left hand .

I am 6 feet tall and if I have the straps done up tight I find it
difficult to reach the release so I do what Jonathan has suggested
and have a loop of paracord secured to the release knob and round
my wrist. Having experienced difficulty in releasing the cable under
tension, using the knob or the cord I am not completely sure that
would work and I am not keen to find out.
I used the same system in my ASW17 for a different reason.

Update on schemmp
The brochure for the new V3 is out and the release as moved to the panel.



hmmmm in my 20, its located exactly where they normally are on a schempp glider. i realize they were built in the 80's but cmon man, whats with the SH bashing? it's one thing to prefer a certain manufacturer, but you have to acknowledge that they're all good gliders.

I never bashed any manufacturer, I just stated a fact. In the mid 1990's my ASW-24 had the release handle high in LHS of cockpit wall, same place modern Schleichers' have them, and it doesn't take panel space and does not interfere with full motion of stick. My V2C and N4 had the release handle in a poorly designed and thought out location. Not bashing anyone just stating facts.

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 5:31:32 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
On Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 4:44:16 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Schleicher has located their release high on lefthand side of cockpit wall for decades, right where it should be.


hmmmm in my 20, its located exactly where they normally are on a schempp glider. i realize they were built in the 80's but cmon man, whats with the SH bashing? it's one thing to prefer a certain manufacturer, but you have to acknowledge that they're all good gliders.

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 1:22:32 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I never bashed any manufacturer, I just stated a fact. In the mid 1990's my ASW-24 had the release handle high in LHS of cockpit wall, same place modern Schleichers' have them, and it doesn't take panel space and does not interfere with full motion of stick. My V2C and N4 had the release handle in a poorly designed and thought out location. Not bashing anyone just stating facts.

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 5:31:32 AM UTC-8, ND wrote:
On Wednesday, December 7, 2016 at 4:44:16 PM UTC-5, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Schleicher has located their release high on lefthand side of cockpit wall for decades, right where it should be.


hmmmm in my 20, its located exactly where they normally are on a schempp glider. i realize they were built in the 80's but cmon man, whats with the SH bashing? it's one thing to prefer a certain manufacturer, but you have to acknowledge that they're all good gliders.

The '24, and later ships, got the release raised after Waibel had a ground loop where he couldn't get to the release quickly enough.
That led to the loop of parachute cord connected to the release and laid across the thigh during launch that you see in a lot of 19's and 20's.
Next ship he designed- better location.
I saved my bacon a couple times.
UH

There are few things in this world which arise out of nothing, The release location in schempp hirth gliders just inside the pilots left knee/thigh is at least as old as the austrias and the shk s. the later cirri and ventus , etc, were continuing a design feature which had worked in the past.
The potential interference may never have been reported due to the rare and lethal nature of the adverse event.
Scott.

No, the position changes subtly.

On my cirrus and N2 it is at the lower left of the stick box quadrant, on
the
N3 in question and later gliders it is in the upper left.

Please read the accident report and its conclusions.

At 02:17 09 December 2016, Scott Williams wrote:
There are few things in this world which arise out of nothing, The
release
=
location in schempp hirth gliders just inside the pilots left knee/thigh
is=
at least as old as the austrias and the shk s. the later cirri and
ventus
=
, etc, were continuing a design feature which had worked in the past.
The potential interference may never have been reported due to the rare
and=
lethal nature of the adverse event.
Scott.