Israeli Air Force to lose Middle East Air Superiority Capability to the Saudis in the near future

(Richard Cranium) wrote:

Sorry Silvey. THIS is where the cursor appears in Agent when a
message is opened for reply.

You're quite correct, BUT...is it such an onerous task to move it
down to the bottom of the text that you want to quote and start
typing your reply there?...let me know if you don't know how to
do that and I'll send detailed instructions...
--

-Gord.

Jack White wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
Jack White wrote:
"Matt A.00 01 is Matthew Ackerman" wrote in
message ...
BTov wrote:
(Jack White) wrote in message
. com...
The Eurofighter Typhoon will give the Saudi Armed Forces the
capability maintain air superiority over any country in the
Middle East including Israel.

so what?

Israel has the best pilots and crews in the Middle East, but the
Eurofighter Typhoon is such a superior aircraft with INCREDIBLE
BVR capability superior to any aircraft in the Middle East that
even though Saudis are lazy and spoiled, the Eurofighter Typhoon
will give the Saudis the best Airforce in the Middle East. The
only way Israel can gain back Air Superiority over Saudi Arabia
would be if Israel were to buy tons of F-22 Raptors.

wutever

Saudi Arabia has a much bigger GDP than Israel and has Trillions
of dollars of Oil Reserves so there's no way Israel can on its
own compete with a country like Saudi Arabia in an arms race.

& saudis bemoan poor palistanians while their arab whole is giving
only 5%.. ;L

The only way Israel can gain back air superiority is if US
taxpayers will again have to pay BILLIONS of dollars like they
always do for Israel, this time for Israel to get FREE F-22
Raptors from the US Taxpayers.

it may be interesting to test this eurofighter against arrows..

Arrows are ABMs not SAMs. They are designed to take a Balistic
Missile out at Apogee so nothing hits Israel. They are very
effective at doing that, 100 percent of the tests with real
Balistic Missiles to be interecepted were succesfully hit by the
system at the warhead not the main body as the Patriorts did. The
Patriot was orginally designed to take out high flying aircraft
not missiles. That is why the body of the rocket stage is what got
hit by it every time and the warhead then still fell to earth
intact about 1/2 the time. The US lost most of the first Gulf War
Casualties to a "shot down" SKUD's warhead that hit a building
housing a lot of miltiary personel. The Arrow uses a different
system of firing a group of shaped charges at the warhead secton
of the missile and body both. The real ideal is to force the
warhead itself to explode due to the charges going off on it.
Hardly cost effective to shoot down a plane. Israel has several
other means of taking out incoming aircraft. It has 12 Patriot
Batteries, 1000s of SAMs on the ready and then their air to air
capabilities and own air to air misiles and guns. They never
faced even odds 1 to 1 and no matter what aircraft the enemy flew
they shot them all down and lost very few of their planes to it. I
pitty any Arab pilot shot down those at home confront, he better
speak the words I surrender in perfect Hebrew or he is dead. They
common Israeli does not speak the symetic variation called Arabic.
It is not their responsibility to know for sure the intention of
an enemy that comes down in a parachute in their back yard. Their
real responsibility is to shoot first if not Isreali and ask later.


In joint flight manuvers the Israeli Pilots in the Israeli built
jets went up against US pilots in F116s and though supposedly up
against the best of the best they had a "kill" ratio of 5 to 1.
For every simulated hit on them they had simulated a hit of five
US top pilots flying the most sophisticated fighter made in the
world at the time. Arab Air forces run from IAF pilots or they
die, that is always been the only choices they had and still will
have even 20 years from now.

Look, it's obvious that Israeli pilots are the best in the middle
east and perhaps the best in the world, but they're NOT as good as
you think they are either.
I'll give you some examples of why they're not as good as you think
they are.
In the Yom Kippur War even Syria shot down AT LEAST 36 Israeli Air
Force aircraft in a SINGLE DAY.

You are very correct, however do you care to mention the Syian
losses that same day? How about that was the only day they had that
airforce intact. They lost over 90 percent of their entire airforce
and pilots in that huge engagment. The Syrian Airforce was seen
heading toward Israel so Israel Scrambled its Norther Fighters that
were designated as ready. That is only about 50 percent of them.
The US Navy would call them the Alert Aircraft which would be manned
and ready if needed. Israelis at that time due to the war, had 1/2
the pilots in the planes ready to be scrambled at a moments notice.
Syria had sent their entire Airforce thus outnumbering the Israelis
at first contact about 4 to 1. Israel did loose a total of 36
aircraft in that battle but under 30 Syrian Planes limped back to
home and not one ever penetrated Israeli Airspace, their real
objective. That meant the IAF shot down 12 - 15 planes for every
one they lost in that battle. No one rates an airforce facing
larger numbers by all aircraft returning safely. That is
rediculous. Next you will be saying the US army is a joke because
they loose men every day in Iraq still. Get realistic, best never
meant no losses and never meant at time high losses, it means what
the *final* result is. During the Battle of Britain the RAF one
night only could get up five fighters who each shot down over 7
enemy aircraft and all those RAF planes were lost. Who won in the
end of the Battle of Britain, not the Luftwaffa that is certain.
The RAF won that battle by no matter what getting what they still
could in the air and inflicting heavier losses on the Germans than
they suffered.

Those are nice stats, but they still don't prove that Israel is as
good as you said in your original post.
If Israel was as good as you say they are, then why did they lose over
100 aircraft and over 800 tanks in the Yom Kippur War?
Israel only had a population of about 3 million back then and was the
size of New Jersey or maybe even smaller back then.
Over 100 aircraft and over 800 tanks are just too many losses for a
country as small as Israel to sustain and still win a war.
Israel deserves an ASTERISK for winning the Yom Kippur War.
It was Operatinal Nickel Grass(A MASSIVE US resupplying effort to
replace destroyed Israeli equipment) that saved Israel's butt and
allowed Israel to win the Yom Kippur War
That's the whole reason that Sadat made peace with Israel.
Sadat proved to himself that Israel was beatable, but he also
discovered that EVEN if he did well enough to beat Israel, he would
still lose because of Operation Nickel Grass or other similar
operations in the future.


ere were 23 SA-6 Sam Batteries in Syria before the start of the Yom
Kippur War, and at the END OF THE YOM KIPPUR WAR, the Israeli Air
Force was only able to take out 3 of those 23 SA-6 batteries at a
great loss of Israeli Aircraft.

Yet they used that to learn they went against better in the Egyptian
Theater, Syria was a holding action, get it. They were like a thorn
not the main target of the IAF, Egypt that had recrossed the Cannal
was more a threat. However, the Israelis only targetted a total of
SAM Batteries in Syria that their intellegence told them correctly
left Damascus open to air-raids and they did send in bombers once
near the end of the war and hit the Syrian verison of the Penatgon
killing all the leading stradigists of the Syrian Military in one
blow. It is not always how many but which ground targets you take
out. Egypt posed a larger threat in the early part of the war that
is why the number of IAF planes in the Norhtern Command was so low
as to not equal the Syrians in number as they had before the war and
would have gone one to one with even a higher kill ratio. The
Israeli Pilots could not have the luxury of cover of a wingman while
setting up their shot, the Syrians could. Had the Command not sent
1/2 the planes from Norther Israel on day one of the war to fight
the stronger better positioned enemy, they would have not even lost
the numbers that they had. Wingmen stay with their lead, protecting
them from being set up for a shot. And if the lead misses they
switch off and the wingman takes lead and tries again. Best shot on
a Jet in air to air is from the rear or about 20 degrees off
straigth on. A wingman's job is to watch for such a set up and
break it up if needed.

The IDF GROUND FORCES did take out a few more of those SA-6
batteries, but the Israeli Air Force certainly was NOT up to the
challenge of taking on the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War.

They never tried sir.

I ABSOLUTELY TOTALLY disagree with that statement.
The Israeli Air Force DID TRY and FAIL at trying to take out the SA-6
Sam Batteries, but they suffered GREAT losses and basically decided
that the IAF wasn't up to the job of taking out the SA-6 and left that
job up to the IDF GROND forces.
Out of ALL the weapons systems and aircraft ever used in all the wars
Israel has ever been involved in, the SA-6 during the Yom Kippur War
had the MOST IMPRESSIVE KILL RATIOS against the Israeli Air Force ever
achieved.
It was NOT till Israel recieved F-15s and F-16 during the 80s that
Israel was able to tame the SA-6 in Lebanon, and the SA-6 was OLD
technology by then anyway.
Israel doesn't have aircraft like B-2s, F-117 Nighthawks, or F-22
Raptors and that's why top of the line SAMs are the Israeli Air
Force's Achilles Hell and have probably always been the Israeli Air
Force's Achilles Hell.
BTW, here's proof that the Israeli Air Force did indeed go after the
SA-6 Sam Batteries but did very poorly at dealing with the SA-6 during
the Yom Kippur War.

http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaver...8/phantom2.htm

"Egypt entered the war with 106 SAM batteries, while Syria had a
further 23.
On the morning of Sunday, October 7th, a massive attack was about to
be launched against Egyptian air bases but it was called off in view
of the desperate situation on the Golan Heights. Under operation
"Doogman 5B" (model 5B) the IAF launched dozens of its F-4s and A-4s
against the Syrian SAM array on the Heights. Having gone in with
insufficient intelligence against a deadly opponent, six Phantoms were
lost during that single day. With only a single SAM battery destroyed,
October 7th was a resounding defeat and the IAF avoided confronting
the Syrian SAMs again. By the end of the war the IAF had destroyed
only 3 Syrian batteries, leaving most of the work to IDF ground
forces."


http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/f4_41.html
On October 7, Phantoms launched an attack against Syrian SAM sites,
but the Syrian forces were now equipped with the new Soviet-built SA-6
Gainful mobile surface-to-air missile. Syrian forces were also
equipped with ZSU-23 mobile radar-controlled anti-aircraft artillery.
The SAM-6/ZSU-23 combination proved deadly. No less than six Phantoms
and thirty A-4 Skyhawks were lost in this single day. Very few of
their pilots manage to escape by parachute. At one time, the Israelis
were losing three out of every five aircraft they were sending over
Golan. These losses were clearly unsupportable, and Chief of Staff
Elazer was forced to temporarily abandon air strikes over Golan in
mid-afternoon.

The SA-6 was an unpleasant surprise to the Israelis. Israeli
electronic countermeasures had been designed to counter the earlier
SA-2 and SA-3 radar-guided missiles that had been encountered by the
Americans in Vietnam, but these techniques were useless against the
SA-6. Earlier Soviet SAMs had used command guidance throughout the
entire flight of the missile, but the SA-6 homed in on CW energy
reflected from the illuminated aircraft for the final approach to the
target. The Straight Flush radar that guided the SA-6 operated over a
much wider bandwidth than did the earlier Soviet radars, and used
D-band for illumination and G, H, and I/J-bands for initial
acquisition and initial launch guidance. The Straight Flush codename
is an apparent reference to the five frequencies used by the system.
In the semi-active homing mode, the SA-6's homing head and
rearward-facing reference antenna receive CW command signals in the
I-band. Beacon signals from the missile are in G and H band. The SA-6
apparently also had an alternative infrared-homing system, but I am
not sure if it was actually used.

The early part of the SA-6's flight was guided by radar, but the
Straight Flush radar operated over a much wider bandwidth than that of
the earlier Soviet missiles. The radar ranged over three separate
frequencies during search, acquisition, tracking, and guidance. Before
the war began, not enough was known about these frequencies or about
the ability of the missile to switch between frequencies while in
flight to throw off jamming transmissions. The ALR-36 radar warning
receiver was of little use in picking up these radar signals, since
these emissions were outside the band in which the ALR-36 was designed
to operate. Consequently, Israeli aircraft found it very difficult to
detect a SA-6 launch, and even more difficult to jam the missile while
in flight."



Did you read the quote where it said "October 7th was a resounding
defeat and the IAF avoided confronting the Syrian SAMs again."
The simple truth that the SA-6 scared Israeli pilots during the Yom
Kippur War like nothing has scared them before or since.
There's no shame in the Israeli Air Force deciding not to take on the
SA-6, it was in fact the smart thing to do.
The Israeli Air Force kicked the Syrian and Egyptian Airforce's butts
in the Yom Kippur War, but the SA-6 kicked the Israeli Airforce's Butt
in the Yom Kippur War.









They took out only enough to open Damascus up for the
air attack on the building all the militiary leadership of Syria
were at. They then brought down that building that killed every high
ranking Officer and all the real experience of how to adjust to
conditions during a war. Read some more on the descission making
during that war of the Israeli Command. Here is some simple facts
on that.

1) Egypt was the primary enemy, and had to be stopped first and
formost.

2) Until the War with Egypt was won or in total Israeli Control only
a holding action would be fought with Syria. They would do all they
could to keep Syrian Forces from over-running the Golan and to keep
the large airforce of Syria from attacking Israel Proper.

3) The SAMs were known about and on the Sinai they were the largest
threat as the IAF would be most active over that airspace. In Syria
until the Egyptian threat was elimanated to the West, was not a
large concern. They new the exact posistions of the Syrian
Batteries. They knew it would be costly to take each out and
decided to only open a single coredor at the time to be able to hit
targets of Command Value in Damascus Proper. They took out which
meant that the overlap capability for defending Damascus was no
longer there on one route.

4) The Egyptians had the Newest SAM batteries that were usually not
let out of Russia. They were also manned by Soviet Technitians not
Egyptian. The IAF did take heavy casualites on thier first run in
with them, but came up with better tactics, Same used by the USA in
Vietnam by the A6-Intruders. A plane would electronicallly make
itself the most important target and as soon as targeting radar
painted them a special missile was fired that locked on to the
battery. If the missile got off anyway the plane did a series of
manouvers many times taking the SAM (SA-7) back to an Egyptian
target and by flying low enough and then lifting in an agagy-4 climb
at the last moment the SAM hit what the plane had passed over. They
also started using flares and attaching baffles to the engines to
hide the heat from the exahaust. Later they were found to have
refined it when they took otu SA-9 sites in the Becka Valley only
loosing a few drones.


It may be of little importance but Israel was going to be on full
alert that day. The US "sold them a bill of goods" saying that the
Egyptians and Syrians were not going to attack and the SA-7s were
mock ups. So Israels only real mistake was to take the word of the
Liars in Washington DC and Langley West Va.



Here's another example, I've read on several different military
sites that there were a dozen or more Pakistani Air Force Pilots
who went over to arab countries during the 6 Day War and the Yom
Kippur War to see how well they could do against the Isreli Air
Force since they had already racked up great kill ratios against
the Indians. They wanted to see "how good they really were" as it
were against a great air force like the Israelis.
They claim that these Pakistanis shot down at least 10 Israeli air
craft in the 6 day war and at least 1 Israeli aircraft in the Yom

That would mean they are the only ones that shot down Israeli
Aircraft in the 6 day war. LOL.


Kippur war without the Israeli Air Force even shooting down 1 of
these Pakistani pilots.
It's NOT just the Pakistanis who claim this, even this Indian Air
Force historian guy who made this Indian Air Force website claims
that.

SO then they claim since the IAF only lists 11 planes lost, one in
a bad landing BTW, that all the planes shot down was by Packestani
Pilots. Have

The Israelis claim that Israel lost 10 planes during the 6 day war,
I'm sure the arabs claim something else.
The truth is probably somewhere in between.
I wouldn't say it's written in stone that Israel lost 1o planes during
the 6 day war, it could just as easily have been 15 or 20.


some more that I can laugh at. BTW I was in that War, and a
relative of mine was a flight section leader and was one of those
planes hit but ejected back over Israeli Held positions. He was
injured but to good to be kept out so he ended the time in the main
Command and Communcations Center. I repeat *only* 10 IAF Combat
Planes were lost to Enemy fire and one of those pilots was hit from
the ground, not the air on a napalm run against Egyptian Tanks that
were part of an Armored Column. I guess that was a Packistani Pilot
as well.

In the Yom Kippur war, a little bit more believable except what
front was he fighting on? Syrian perhaps in that one engagement,
after that there were no more air to air fights the Syrian Planes
that survived just stood down totally. So unless he was part of
that then I doubt it as well.

Here's a quote from the Indian site that may clear things up for you.
These are all "CONFIRMED KILLS" according to the Indian Air Force guy.


http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm#azam
"Saiful Azam is a not heard of much in aircombat. Azam has the unique
distinction of having kills against airforces of two different
countries. as a young flying officer during the 65 Conflict, Saiful
Azam managed to shoot down an IAF Gnat on Sept 18th, a rarity as such
the Gnat was seldom lost in Aircombat. his victim Fg Off V Mayadev
ejected to become a POW.
Azam participated two years later in the Arab Israeli conflict of June
1967. deputed to the Royal Jordanian Air Force, flying Hunters, the
RJAF Hunters were flown out to the Iraqi Airbase of H-3 in an attempt
to put them out of range of Israeli Air Force. It was here he
accomplished a unique feat, flying in a Hawker Hunter as a No.2 His
formation intercepted an Israeli formation of Four Vautours and Two
Mirage IIIs. One of the Mirage IIIs was flown by Capt. Gideon Dror.
Dror shot down Azam's Wingman, but himself fell to Azam's Guns. Dror
ejected to be taken POW. Moments later, Azam intercepted the
formation of four Vantour Bombers and bought down one of them flown by
Capt Golan, who ejected. . Azam had earlier bought down a Super
Mystere the previous day over Jordan. Azam , being a Bengali did not
fly in the 71 conflict.

In the final reckoning Azam ties up with Alam in terms of kills, but
his tally has a range of kills including the enviable credit of a Mach
2 Mirage III Fighter."

http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm
Here's a quote from the New Zealand site about the 6 day war.
"The Six-Day War between Israel and a number of Arab countries in
1967.
During this conflict the PAF sent personnel to Egypt, Jordan and Syria
to support the Arabs in their battle against the Israelis. PAF pilots
managed to shoot down ten Israeli aircraft, including Mirages,
Mystères and Vautours, without losses on their own side. The PAF
pilots operated with Egyptian, Jordanese and Iraqi combat aircraft."

Here's a quote from the New Zealand site about the Yom Kippur War.
"Yom Kippur War, October 1973
During this war 16 PAF pilots volunteered to leave for the Middle East
in order to support Egypt and Syria but by the time they arrived Egypt
had already agreed on a cease-fire. Syria remained in a state of war
against Israel so the PAF pilots became instructors there and formed
the A-flight of 67 Squadron at Dumayr AB. Later on PAF pilot Flt. Lt.
Sattar Alvi was honoured by the Syrian government."





If he was on the Egyptian front and said he shot down a IAF Combat
Jet, then what day of the war did he do it. The Egyptians used their
airforce only 2 days out of that war. The first day to support
their ground assault and the next to last day of the war when the
SA-7s got taken out of the picture and Israelis were buring the dead
Soviets in unmarked graves so not to cause WWWIII over them having
combattants in the war. Nixon would have let loose SAC which he had
up the entire war to prevent that from being done. Had Israelis put
on a huge show and tell and not held that secret till about 2 years
ago, Nixon may have sent some of the bombers or missiles in and bye
bye world. IDF simply took the IDs of those Soviets killed in the
taking out of the SA-7s and then simply buried them right by the
reckage of the once command center for the battery. The IDF had the
Egptian Army trapped and the Syrians on the run, their airforce in
ruins in both those nations. Again it is not just numbers it is the
results. Do you have any ideas of how many American B17 crews died
in that bobming campaign, but the mission was accomplished while the
Egyptian and Syrians Missions were not the Israeli Missions all
ended with the final defeats of both enemies on the field. Had not
the US Stepped in and told Israel to let supplies into the trapped
Egyptain Forces they would all have died with out a shot fired in
another two days. Nothing stood between them and Ciaro and that
could have meant Israeli Troops and guns hitting that city and
cutting all escape off and putting a gun to Saddam's head and
demanding Unconditional Surrender. Israeli Tanks the next day were
shelling the outskirts of Damascus. IDF Airborn had taken all the
roads leading to any escape for them. The plans accoridng to the
Dyan Memoirs was to start dismantiling Damscus moving in for the
kill there and to take Ciaro and let the Egyptian Army trapped with
no drinking water left to die of thirst. That was the mission and
they accomplished it for all intent and purposes. As to Egyptian
Pilot losses they IAF shot down killing Saddat's own brother with
his entire flight that last day they flew. Again the ratios went
skyrocketting since the SAMs were no longer in action.

It is the final result that counts not the numbers unless the numbers
aproach 100 percent. In every war Israel started with fewer planes
and pilots then their enemy, yet in the end they always come out on
top. Read some more real history by those that fought there and
learn.

Pakestani Claims only say the Syrians and Egyptians had no kills at
all. LOL. And how did they get thier planes there without the US
seeing it and documenting it. LOL again. Just more Mulsim and
Indian (they also lie about Israel 1000s of times) lies.

Indians lie about Israel infavor of Pakistanis?
That's about the funniest things I've ever heard.
It's true that back 50 or 60 years ago the liberal Indian Hindus like
Gandhi suppored the Palestinians and Gandhi even opposed to the right
to create Israel.
That really doesn't matter now though since it's the 21st century.
India is Israel's 2nd BEST ally.
Indian Hindus are the MOST pro Israel people on earth after Americans.
It's pretty far fetched to say that an Indian Hindu who's an Indian
Air Force historian or something would make up stuff in favor of
Pakistan and against Israel.
Look at this Indian guy's website ( http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/ ).
It should be obvious that he's a die hard Indian Air Force fan, and
he's probably a fan and friend of Israel as well.





http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/pakpilots.htm
Here's the homepage of this Indian site.
http://jaganpvs.tripod.com/




This website from New Zealand claims that Pakistani pilots shot down
10 Israeli aircraft in the 6 day war, and at least 1 Israeli
aircraft in the Yom Kippur War.
http://www.scramble.nl/pk.htm
Here's the homepage of this site from New Zealand.
http://www.scramble.nl/

I also did do a google search to find out what kind of kill ratios
Soviet Pilots had against the Israelis when Soviet pilots flew for
Arab Air Forces, but I didn't find anything.


BTW, as even if Israeli pilots are the best in the world, they still
can't be in the same league as the Americans or Europeans because of
the number of and the quality of equipment that the Europeans and
Americans have.
I'd even have to put the Spanish Air Force above the Israeli Air
Force when the Spanish get all their Eurofighter Typhoons(they have
already got their first batch of Eurofighter Typhoons I understand).
No matter how good an Israeli pilot in an F-15I or F-16I would be,
he/she just CAN'T compete with an American Pilot in an F-22 Raptor
or a European pilot in a Eurofighter Typhoon.
The Israelis just don't have stuff even close to as good as the
Meteor BVR air to air missile for example.
Most of Western Europe will have these missiles on their fighter
planes soon.








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Same reason the US it turns out was loosing 2 - 3 aircraft a day over North
Vietnam and sometimes more than that. No nation had faced the newest SAMS
yet and that is how they got shot down in the early days of the war. Every
time they went up against the enemy Planes it was the enemy that came up the
looser. Later they came up tactics that worked against those SAMs that were
the cover for the Ground forces and in the end their loses dropped to a
lower level and they drove the Egyptian and Syrian Airforces totally from
the sky. If they were not that good howcome it was only IAF planes flying
by the time of the ceace fire? They took on two airforces each with as many
aircraft as Israel had (that means 2 times the numbers) and Egypt had soviet
Technitians manning the then latest SA version of SAM Missile Batteries that
covered the entire area.

Being best is not always about numbers of casualties but more about the who
wins the final battles and the war because of the way they fought. The IAF
cleared the skies of the enemy air power, took out just enough of the SAM
Sites to create openings. They in fact bombed the Port of Alexander the
second day of that war. Tell me how long before Doolittle bombed the
Japanese after Pearl Harbor? You have blinders on as the you keep
repeating to everyone your casualty figures and many here tell you so what?
Israeli Pilots for the most part managed to eject. Unlike the Islamic
Counter Parts they did their best to bet behind their lines and eject when
to severly damaged. Where was that Egyptian Air Force when the Israelis
built thier pontoon Bridges accross the Canal and crossed over it with their
men and tanks so nicely lined up for the Egyptians. What little was left of
them was not flying anymore in reserve to put up one last battle for Ciaro
that is where they were, to protect their Saddat and his Ministers. Where
were they when the Egyptian Army was being forced with thier backs to the
canal (rancid sea water) and boxed in on the other three sides if the IAF
was so bad as you want us to falsly think? They stayed out of the sky
knowing to fly was to die for them. IAF controlled the skies at that point.
Yes they lost 100 planes but not 100 pilots 28 of them were back up again
the next day in another aircraft. 32 were hospilalized for common things
that happen to many pilots when the eject from thier aircraft, burns, broken
arms and legs and the like. Many were in fact taken prisoner but some of
them were liberated within an hour by IDF Point units (furthest out units in
front of the advancing troops). In all less then 15 percent of the pilots
died. Which means they lived to fly again if needed. If I were you I would
not look to the past performances of the IDF, but what since then they
proved by actions capable of doing. There are very few pilots that flew in
the Yom Kippur war that would be used as pilots today. How about that
presission raid on the Iraqi Nuclear Facilities within a block of 3
embassies that did not get a scratch. And that was not with "smart bombs"
at all that was with Iron Bombs, dumb ones at that. There are at least 100
missions that they flew in the M.E. in the last couple of years. In
Lebanon, within the Becka Valley where the syrians put up SAM sites, they
took them out without so much as one lost plane. And the weapons they used
were 100 percent Israeli made. The planes were US built but the smart
drones, the electronics to make the small drone look like a fighter-bomber
to radar and the missies they used to destroy the Command Center of the
battery was all designed and made in Israel. The US in actuallity is buying
dronnes from Israel.

Get the idea yet?


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Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

No, it's certainly not a big deal to move text down. The fact is that
many of the messages I respond to on this NG are voluminous loads of
crap that I usually replace (to save bandwidth) with a simple:

Snip

Posting at the bottom does make sense if one wants and/or expects
others to read an entire thread chronologically. However,
soc.culture.palestine is so full of morons (and I recognize that I may
be one of them) that most things should only be posted/read once,
under penalty of loss of brain cells. Indeed, many things here would
be best typed by the author-moron and totally deleted before posting.
I don't know if the same applies to the other affected NG.


On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:38:16 GMT, "Gord Beaman" )
wrote:

(Richard Cranium) wrote:

Sorry Silvey. THIS is where the cursor appears in Agent when a
message is opened for reply.

You're quite correct, BUT...is it such an onerous task to move it
down to the bottom of the text that you want to quote and start
typing your reply there?...let me know if you don't know how to
do that and I'll send detailed instructions...
--

-Gord.

Richard Cranium wrote:
When the reply posting is far more interesting than the original post,
top posting is not only acceptable, it is preferable. That's why some
newsreaders automatically place the response at the top of the thread.


It makes it considerably more difficult to follow a thread. The only thing
proper bottom posting requires is trimming quotations to one or two paragraphs
max. Then you have an excellent, quite readable post.

Most top posters just reply to the comment and don't bother to trim anything off
the bottom. They add a tremendous amount of unnecessary bandwidth to any
newsgroup.

I prefer that I be able to read both the reference and the reply without having
to scroll excessively. I don't see that as too much to want.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

Well if a Schnerd says it, I'm sure that Mr. McCarthy agrees.
Therefore, I disagree and will top post this response in opposition.

BTW - did you really bang Candace??

On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:39:52 -0400, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
wrote:

Richard Cranium wrote:
When the reply posting is far more interesting than the original post,
top posting is not only acceptable, it is preferable. That's why some
newsreaders automatically place the response at the top of the message.


It makes it considerably more difficult to follow a thread. The only thing
proper bottom posting requires is trimming quotations to one or two paragraphs
max. Then you have an excellent, quite readable post.

Most top posters just reply to the comment and don't bother to trim anything off
the bottom. They add a tremendous amount of unnecessary bandwidth to any
newsgroup.

I prefer that I be able to read both the reference and the reply without having
to scroll excessively. I don't see that as too much to want.


--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

Richard Cranium wrote:
Well if a Schnerd says it, I'm sure that Mr. McCarthy agrees.
Therefore, I disagree and will top post this response in opposition.

BTW - did you really bang Candace??


Of course. I left her smoking.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

Richard Cranium wrote:
Well if a Schnerd says it, I'm sure that Mr. McCarthy agrees.
Therefore, I disagree and will top post this response in opposition.

BTW - did you really bang Candace??


Of course. I left her smoking.

A cigarette one assumes?
--

-Gord.

Gord Beaman wrote:
BTW - did you really bang Candace??

Of course. I left her smoking.

A cigarette one assumes?


It would be ungentlemanly of me to elaborate.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

Arie Kazachin wrote:
In message - "Matt A.00 01 is
Matthew Ackerman" writes:

Arie Kazachin wrote:

[self snip. I know what I wrote]


The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to
disclose it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep
end and would use SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and
fire the misiles in the Silos at the Russians as he warned them he
would if they did what you say. There is no declasified information
on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab side to this day.
There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no IAF pilot,
no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things.
Bottom

[snip. Lost patience to correct what's below after the line above. ]

Despite your baseless claims, it had LONG SINCE beed declassified and
appeared in books and papers. The book "The sky is not the limit" had
been printed in 1990 and it includes this battle description, so the
declassification came before 1990. Out of the 5 downed MiG-21s 3 were
downed by Mirage-IIICJ and two by F-4E. The pilots of Mirages we
Asher Snir, "Avik", Yiftah Spector and the pilots of F-4Es we
Aviem Sela and Avihu Ben-Nun. Find the pilots and ask them :-)
or do some "googling". You'll also probably get it at
"http://www.iaf.org.il/" somewhere under "history". Unfortunately I
can't access it at home - the site designers so heavily "optimized
for MS IE" that my Netscape can't show it correctly.



************************************************** **************************
**
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail:
*

************************************************** **************************
**
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name.
Sorry, SPAM trap. ___ .__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
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\_|

Where did it say the downed Mig Pilots were Soviets. That was the issue
that you posed and not what planes were involved. Is that why you simply
snipped out your previous words and said you knew what you posted. Should I
put back those quotes I retain the posts I download for the highest number
of days one can enter in that option on OE, I think that is 9,999 days. My
sent copies of all posts is automaticaly kept and I could find it there as
well till I decide it is too old to bother keeping usually about 2 years for
most posts and 3 for business emails sent out from here. I Also if I deem
it important enough flag the sent message and my cleanup is done by a 2
rules in OE.

Rule Sent CLean 1: In SENT folder if Message is flagged Stop executing
message rules.

Rule Sent CLean 2: In SENT folder if message older than 742 days Delete
Message stop executing rules.

Real easy to keep long enough and self clean every time I run OE. So I
unlike you do know what I responded to and you seem to forgotten.

As to 1990 My MS is is Comp Sci, but I hold an associates in Visual arts (NY
School of Vissual Arts) and a BA in History. Every professor would have
called 1990 still recently. The book was written and published (I do have a
copy of it) in 1990, the source is documented and if you check the
documentation out, the second step of researching a topic. That is one
reads it in a footnoted or endnoted source and then goes to the source that
the author used. You would find it was infact declasified only the prior
year 1989. A source is in Historical Terms considered new or recent till it
has had 20 years of reviewing for any mistakes by other historians. Now
that would take that off the "recently" list in 2009 not before as I was
taught.

There are books out on the Battle of Britain written 10 years after the war
using documents that were declasified rigfht after the War. Later many
mistakes as to pertant facts still came out that proved the conculusions of
those Historians wrong. I.E. the exact fighter capacity of the RAF at the
time of the Munich Conference. The first set of documents indicated 20
times the number of fighters then were really there and usefull. That
document came out just after the end of the war. 15 years later a military
historian after talking with mechanics at various air fields at that time,
found a flaw in how the numbers were generated. The document counted old WW
I Biplanes and unarmed trainers as if they were viable fighters. Planes
being scrapped at that time were also counted by the orders of the Air
Marshal of the time. He believed their were Nazi Agents that had access to
the documents and wanted them to think Britain was a lot better armed and
ready than it was.

That is why any good historian will 'think of anything available for less
than 20 years as recent. Real good researching Historians usually leave
anything of the last 20 years as "current events" as it is too knew to
uncover the historical parts of it other then at the most trivial levels.' -
Dr. Buchsbaumb U. Of Prague and Pace University after 1969.


I used to have some of his books and attended 3 of his classes. He escaped
from Hiltler and worked in British Intellegence during WWII and returned to
his home in 1945 taught at Prague and during that famous spring of freedom
published 2 books he had hidden from the Communists then as they fell to the
Warsaw Pack was away on a lecture in London. He and his wife stayed out of
that country and came to the USA. Apon my return and finishing Physical
Rehab for the wounds in action in '67 I attended that school (Pace U) at
their Pleasantville Campus (Westchester County NY) where he was teaching.
He was one of my proffessors and my advisor. He gave "F" on papers that had
too many sources under 20 years old. No topic that came into being during
that 20 year window was ever accepted.

I will abide by his definition of recent not yours, thank you.


--�
MattA
?subject=HepatitusC-Objectives

Matt's Hep-C Story web pages are back at a home. No more drop down ads
to get in your way. http://mywebpages.comcast.net/matta00

Truth about Howard Aubrey AKA madyan67:
http://www.geocities.com/lord_haha_libeler/

In message - "Matt A.00 01 is Matthew
Ackerman" writes:

Arie Kazachin wrote:

[self snip. I know what I wrote]


The IDF intelegence deny that happened as the CIA asked them not to disclose
it. The world was afraid that Nixon had gone off the deep end and would use
SAC Bombers already airborn 24 hours a day and fire the misiles in the Silos
at the Russians as he warned them he would if they did what you say. There
is no declasified information on Russian Pilots flying missions for the Arab
side to this day. There are of course the rhumors that it happened but no
IAF pilot, no Arab Pilot, and no Soviet Pilot has come forward about such to
this day. Stop inventing stories and reporting unprovable things. Bottom

[snip. Lost patience to correct what's below after the line above. ]

Despite your baseless claims, it had LONG SINCE beed declassified and
appeared in books and papers. The book "The sky is not the limit" had been
printed in 1990 and it includes this battle description, so the
declassification came before 1990. Out of the 5 downed MiG-21s 3 were
downed by Mirage-IIICJ and two by F-4E. The pilots of Mirages we
Asher Snir, "Avik", Yiftah Spector and the pilots of F-4Es we
Aviem Sela and Avihu Ben-Nun. Find the pilots and ask them :-)
or do some "googling". You'll also probably get it at
"http://www.iaf.org.il/" somewhere under "history". Unfortunately I can't
access it at home - the site designers so heavily "optimized for MS IE" that
my Netscape can't show it correctly.


************************************************** ****************************
* Arie Kazachin, Israel, e-mail: *
************************************************** ****************************
NOTE: before replying, leave only letters in my domain-name. Sorry, SPAM trap.
___
.__/ |
| O /
_/ /
| | I HAVE NOWHERE ELSE TO GO !!!
| |
| | |
| | /O\
| _ \_______[|(.)|]_______/
| * / \ o ++ O ++ o
| | |
| |
\ \_)
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\_|