Blackbird v. Mig-25

Sir,
Since You know this matter well I would like a conformation and an information.
"World Air Power Journal" published in 1999. reported 35 to 40 enemy aircraft shot
down by Iranian Tomcats, is this corect?
How many Iraqi aircraft were shot down by F-4's and did F-5's score any?
Nemanja Vukicevic
aeronautical engineering student

B2431 wrote:

Now notice how you changed from MiG-37 to MiG25 to avoid answering
my question.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

No books have been written about the MiG-37 apart from the Italeri
manual for their plastic model :-) But if you mean MiG-31, than, as you
(probably don't) know, it's original designation during development was
MiG-25MP (Ye-155MP).

--
Regards,

Venik

Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru
If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line:
?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse

Tom Cooper wrote:

Besides, when you state that the MiG-25 or MiG-31 have had such an "impact"
on US planing that the SR-71 was retired, why don't you then also explain
about the impact of the F-14 on further developments of MiG-25s?

Because we are talking about SR-71 and MiG-25. We can also talk about
the impact of the MiG-25 on the development of the F-14, but this
wouldn't really have anything to do with SR-71, would it?


Namely, this was stopped on a direct order from Moscow after a second
Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs on testing in Iraq was shot down by Iranian F-14s
(using "non-operational" AIM-54s) - in 1987.

If you want to talk about the F-14, then, perhaps, you should start
another thread, unless, of course, your intention is to shift the topic
of this discussion to the Iran-Iraq war (during which there were no
verifiable MiG-25 kills by the F-14 - just a lot of claims by the
glorious Iranian AF. One MiG-25RB was downed by an Iranian Hawk. I've
read your book about the Iran-Iraq war and you don't present any
evidence of the MiG-25 - F-14 encounters you describe in such vivid
details. Just a bunch on baloney.

--
Regards,

Venik

Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru
If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line:
?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse

Wolfhenson wrote:

Any steel
containing 5% nickel or more is considered to be resistant to
atmospheric corrosion in addition most nickel steels contain chromium
in similar quantity as nickel and that is another element that makes
the steel stainless.

Let's stick to technical definitions: stainless steel is a ferrous alloy
with a minimum of 10.5% chromium content. Major elements of the MiG-25
were made of appoximately 80% of VNS-2, VNS-4, and VNS-5 alloys, 11%
D-19T aluminum alloy and 8% OT4-1 titanium alloy, none of which falls
under this definition.

--
Regards,

Venik

Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru
If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line:
?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse

From: Venik
Date: 8/29/2004 12:06 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

B2431 wrote:

Now notice how you changed from MiG-37 to MiG25 to avoid answering
my question.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

No books have been written about the MiG-37 apart from the Italeri
manual for their plastic model :-) But if you mean MiG-31, than, as you
(probably don't) know, it's original designation during development was
MiG-25MP (Ye-155MP).

--
Regards,

Venik

I stand corrected, I meant MiG-31. You still tap danced. As usual you can't
provide proof of your assertions.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

But, I don't understand why do you then ignore the impact of Western
technology on Soviet thinking and planing? Why ignore the amount of
Western-technology used to develop specific Soviet systems (the Kh-58,
main
armament of the MiG-25BM, for example, was developed from French-built
AJ.168 ARM, supplied to USSR via Iraq) or ignore Soviet own negative
experiences with some of their most potent systems...?
Small correction. The AJ168 was the British part of the Anglo-French Martel
project (AS37 being the French developed anti-radiation version, the AJ168
the British developed TV guided version).

"Wolfhenson" wrote in message
om...
Sir,
Since You know this matter well I would like a conformation and an
information.
"World Air Power Journal" published in 1999. reported 35 to 40 enemy
aircraft shot
down by Iranian Tomcats, is this corect?

The number of kills (confirmed by cross-examination of Iranian, Iraqi, US
and Saudi files) is actually three times higher; between 30 and 40
additional "probable", "possible" and "claimed" kills are currently still
under investigation.

How many Iraqi aircraft were shot down by F-4's and did F-5's score any?

Approx 110 by F-4s, and between 30 and 35 by F-5s (including two Foxbats,
one of which was shot down by 20mm cannons while underway at low level).

--

Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

"Venik" wrote in message
...
Tom Cooper wrote:

Besides, when you state that the MiG-25 or MiG-31 have had such an
"impact"
on US planing that the SR-71 was retired, why don't you then also
explain
about the impact of the F-14 on further developments of MiG-25s?

Because we are talking about SR-71 and MiG-25. We can also talk about
the impact of the MiG-25 on the development of the F-14, but this
wouldn't really have anything to do with SR-71, would it?

Well, if you would know what are you actually talking about then you'd know
that it actually has to do. Then, the SR-71 came into existence from a
project that was also developed into the YF-12. And... the YF-12 was
equipped with a direct predecessor of the AWG-9 radar, and armed with a
direct predecessor of the AIM-54....

Namely, this was stopped on a direct order from Moscow after a second
Soviet-flown MiG-25BMs on testing in Iraq was shot down by Iranian F-14s
(using "non-operational" AIM-54s) - in 1987.

If you want to talk about the F-14, then, perhaps, you should start
another thread, unless, of course, your intention is to shift the topic
of this discussion to the Iran-Iraq war...

You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31
(the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their AGM-86
ALCMs) on SR-71.

I said, "OK, no problem". And, then I asked you why don't you explain about
the impact of (extremely negative) experiences from the testing of Soviet
equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was _indeed_ highly influential for (the
end of) development of MiG-25?

If, "this is not the right thread to talk about that" is your only answer,
no problem, just say so...

...(during which there were no
verifiable MiG-25 kills by the F-14 - just a lot of claims by the
glorious Iranian AF.

If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?
- why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two
dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s?
- why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming
Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts?

One MiG-25RB was downed by an Iranian Hawk.

Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's another
story.

What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only one
IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes
that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD Archive
in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989.
According to the same document, and also US intel documents released
according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left by
1991.

How do you explain this difference? What happened to 30 MiG-25s delivered to
Iraq but missing by 1991?

Also, if we're now going back to the overall pictu even if only 1 Foxbat
was shot down by Iranian MIM-23s, in total that makes three shot down over
Lebanon by the Israelis, one by the Iranians, and two by USAF in 1991.
That's six MiG-25s - at least (the actual number is over 30, but never
mind). Could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in something
like 4.000 SAM-firings against them?

I've read your book about the Iran-Iraq war and you don't present any
evidence of the MiG-25 - F-14 encounters you describe in such vivid
details. Just a bunch on baloney.

Of course: my books are full of no evidence for such encounters, and lots of
baloney. Everybody knows this meanwhile.

BTW, what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of
SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about? Any gun-camera pictures or
radar bands at hand?

Oh, and, BTW #2, I also asked:

- Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the
US planning?

- Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped
MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988?

Are you able to offer a reasonable answer to these questions, or do you
prefer to ignore them again?

--


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************

Tom Cooper wrote:

Well, if you would know what are you actually talking about then you'd know
that it actually has to do. Then, the SR-71 came into existence from a
project that was also developed into the YF-12. And... the YF-12 was
equipped with a direct predecessor of the AWG-9 radar, and armed with a
direct predecessor of the AIM-54....

And... they all came from the Wright flyer. Like I said, you are trying
to change the subject of the discussion.

You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31
(the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their AGM-86
ALCMs) on SR-71.

I am talking about the role of the MiG-25/31 in the decision to withdraw
the SR-71 from service. And you are deliberately trying to change the topic.

If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?

Iraq lost several MiG-25s in accidents during the conflict. As I already
mentioned, one was lost to an Iranian SAM. One was lost due to
uncontained engine failure. Another one was lost on landing during a
test flight .

Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's another
story.

I know, according to your book, Iraq lost about three times the number
of MiG-25 it had. That's not even counting the ones downed during the PGW.


What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only one
IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes
that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD Archive
in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989.
According to the same document, and also US intel documents released
according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left by
1991.

It's a well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs and
eight MiG-25RB recce bombers. The refurbished MiG-25 that crashed in
Dec. 1987 during a test flight was replaced by the Soviets. And, of
course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were
downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s
on the 25th. My only suggestion is that you should look for better
"secret" documents and stop thinking stuff up.

--
Regards,

Venik

Visit my site: http://www.aeronautics.ru
If you need to e-mail me, please use the following subject line:
?Subject=Newsgr0ups_resp0 nse

"Venik" wrote in message
...

snip

You're explaining about the - supposed - impact of the MiG-25 and MiG-31
(the last of which was actually developed to counter B-1s and their
AGM-86
ALCMs) on SR-71.

I am talking about the role of the MiG-25/31 in the decision to withdraw
the SR-71 from service. And you are deliberately trying to change the
topic.

You can complain I'm "changing the topic" as much as you like. The point is
only that you're avoiding answers to all questions asked in your direction
here, and can therefore continue explaining me whatever you want until the
hell freezes.

Namely, you still have not mentioned all these books and documents in which
the US thinking and plans were changed because of MiG-31s. No trace of any
kind of proof is coming from you (no surprise: you still haven't provided
any proof for 200+ NATO planes shot down over Serbia, in 1999, either - even
if you're announcing this since five years ). I'm telling you right away -
like so many others here - that the SR-71 was _not_ retired because of
MiG-25/31 threat, and you have not a trace of evidence to deny this.

So, either you finally mention all these books and documents so we can take
a look and you can prove us wrong, or admit you have no evidence at all for
your statements.

If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against
IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian
F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?

Iraq lost several MiG-25s in accidents during the conflict. As I already
mentioned, one was lost to an Iranian SAM. One was lost due to
uncontained engine failure. Another one was lost on landing during a
test flight .

You're avoiding to answer my question, so here it is again: - why are there
pictures of wreckage of IrAF and Soviet MiG-25s shot down over Iran?

Besides, if your data is so "well documented", then explain me when was that
one lost to an Iranian SAM and where? How about date and place? Who was the
pilot? From which unit was he? Can you provide a picture of the plane or
wreckage? Where and when was one lost "due to uncontained engine failure"?
Who was the pilot of that plane? Can you provide a picture of that plane or
its wreckage?Where and when was "another one lost on landing during a test
flight"?

BTW, do you at least have a clue which IrAF units used to operate MiG-25s?
Detachments from which V-VS units were sent to Iraq to test their Foxbats in
combat?

Well, the IRIAF I-HAWKs rather got something like four, but that's
another
story.

I know, according to your book, Iraq lost about three times the number
of MiG-25 it had.

Excellent: how about you citing from any of my books where do I state
anything similar?

You said you have read the book, so at least this should not be a
problem....just cite exactly what can be found in the book "Iran-Iraq War in
the Air, 1980-1988" about the number of MiG-25s lost by Iraqis?

What I'd like to know here is the following: as you're so sure that only
one
IrAF Foxbat was shot down by Iranians, then explain us here how it comes
that according to a document I've got released from the Central MoD
Archive
in Moscow, Iraq has got over 60 MiG-25s from USSR between 1980 and 1989.
According to the same document, and also US intel documents released
according to FOIA procedures, however, there were barely 30 of them left
by
1991.

It's a well-documented fact that Iraq acquired only 12 MiG-25PDs....

Where is it "well documented"? What kind of evidence can you provide to
support this statement?

...and
eight MiG-25RB recce bombers. The refurbished MiG-25 that crashed in
Dec. 1987 during a test flight was replaced by the Soviets.

Where did it crash and what is the source for this? Why do the official
Soviet documents state that over 60 MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq, but
there were only 30 left in 1991?

And, of
course, three Iraqi MiG-25s were lost during the PGW - two P-types were
downed by a pair of F-15Cs on the 19th and one more - by a pair of F-16s
on the 25th.

Which IrAF MiG-25s were shot down by F-16s in 1991? Which F-16-pilots scored
these kills and with which weapons?

My only suggestion is that you should look for better
"secret" documents and stop thinking stuff up.

No problem at all: I'll stop "thinking stuff up" and look for better
documents as soon as you finally start answering my questions. Meanwhile
you've ignored quite a lot of these, so here they are again:

- I asked why don't you explain about the impact of (extremely negative)
experiences from the testing of Soviet equipment in Iran-Iraq War, which was
_indeed_ highly influential for (the end of) development of MiG-25?

- I asked, could you now explain us how many SR-71s were shot down in
something like 4.000 SAM-firings against them?

- If there is no "verifiable" MiG-25-kill scored by IRIAF F-14s against IrAF
and Soviet MiG-25s during that war, then, please be so kind to explain:
- why are there pictures of MiG-25-wreckage (like on p.64 of "Iranian F-14
Units in Combat", just for example)?
- why are there ex-IrAF MiG-25 pilots who confirm a loss of at least two
dozens of Iraqi and Soviet Foxbats to Iranian F-14s?
- why do the US intel documents one can get via FOIA procedures confirming
Iranian and Iraqi documents, pilot- and eyewitness-accounts?

I told you I have no problem with your explaining my books for "lots of
baloney", nor stating I'm "thinking stuff up". But, you still have not
answered what is the "evidence" for all these "successful" interceptions of
SR-71s by Soviet fighters you're talking about (see your previous posts in
this thread)? Can you provide any gun-camera pictures or radar bands, or
point at any kind of a source that could?

- Why do the US and Soviet documents agree with each other that over 60
MiG-25s were delivered to Iraq between 1980 and 1989, but barely 30 remained
operational by 1991?

- Can you name a single book that would explain the impact of MiG-31 on the
US planning?

- Would you be so kind to tell us why were all the orders for IFR-equipped
MiG-25s for Libya, Syria and Iraq cancelled in late 1987/1988?

Finally, are you able to offer a reasonable answer to even a single one of
these questions, or do you prefer to show us how much you like to "think
stuffs up" by ignoring them?

--


Tom Cooper
Freelance Aviation Journalist & Historian
Vienna, Austria

*************************************************

Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S7875

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...hp/title=S6585

African MiGs
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/titl...=S6550~ser=COM

*************************************************