flaps again

On Jan 1, 1:23 am, Denny wrote:
On Dec 30, 9:38 pm, Al wrote:



I love the manual flaps in my Cessna 172E

Al
SFF
Spokane, WA

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

First, as a reminder, some may recall that I had unwittingly landed one day
in Williamsburg, VA without the flaps. I didn't notice they had not
deployed until my next pre-flight when I found them INOP. - Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ya know, flaps are not the only way to land... Once you have mastered
the basics and gotten the rating, you need to keep expanding your zone
of comfort...
Try some half flap landings, followed by quarter flap landings,
followed by no flap landings... Cross wind landings... And on a light
wind day emphasis, LIGHT do a downwind landing and a downwind
takeoff...
The aircraft will feel different scary different for some and the
sight picture out the windshield will be different... All of these
will be learning experiences that will increase your zone of comfort
in handling the plane in the future...
The major difference between Joe Pilot you and me and some hotshot
airshow or military pilot is that they have worked their zone of
comfort up to having the aircraft on the very edge of 'out of
control...
Notice I am not advocating doing dangerous things, but simply,
stepwise, to increase your zone of comfort inside of the aircrafts
performance envelope...

denny

Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Cheers

On Jan 1, 2:45 am, "Maxwell" wrote:
"Kobra" wrote in message

...



I kind-of feel vindicated that another pilot had the same mild
distractions
in the pattern, was setting his flaps as always and never noticed at each
of
three changes that no flaps what-so-ever were being provided.

You shouldn't, it really just indicates both of you have a problem.
Transitioning from 0 to 30/40 degrees flaps changes the pitch and trim
handling on a 150, 152, 172, 177, 182 so much - if you can't sense the
difference, you really need to spend a LOT more time with the airplane.

Too right! I can't believe he could not feel the difference in the
plane as flaps extend. You can also feel vibration and hear the motor
in all the SE Cessnas I've flown. Is this another simmer? If not I
agree he really needs some quality training.

Cheers

Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short
field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.


I had to.

"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless, short
field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.

Vaughn

B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.


I had to.


I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area—ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area—ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?

Not flapless.

I had to.

I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Gig601XLBuilder wrote:
B A R R Y wrote:
Vaughn Simon wrote:
"WingFlaps" wrote in message
news:2a8f80a4-d43b-4daf-b9c8- Don't you have to demonstrate flapless,
short field and normal
landings as part of you certificate?
Not flapless.
I had to.
I didn't and a look at the PTS standards doesn't show it as a requirement.

IV. TAKEOFFS, LANDINGS, AND GO-AROUNDS
! A. Normal and Crosswind Takeoff and Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! B. Normal and Crosswind Approach and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! C. Soft-Field Takeoff and Climb (ASEL)
! D. Soft-Field Approach and Landing (ASEL)
! E. Short-Field (Confined Area?ASES) Takeoff and
Maximum Performance Climb (ASEL and ASES)
! F. Short-Field Approach (Confined Area?ASES) and Landing
(ASEL and ASES)
! G. Glassy Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! H. Glassy Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! I. Rough Water Takeoff and Climb (ASES)
! J. Rough Water Approach and Landing (ASES)
! K. Forward Slip to a Landing (ASEL and ASES)
! L. Go-Around/Rejected Landing (ASEL and ASES)

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?


Yeah it's there and I've marked it below. But that doesn't mean you have
to land with the gear up if the guy giving you the test tells you to.

X. AREA OF OPERATION: EMERGENCY OPERATIONS
SNIP
2. Analyzes the situation and takes appropriate action for simulated
emergencies appropriate to the airplane provided for the practical
test for at least three (3) of the following—
a. partial or complete power loss.
b. engine roughness or overheat.
c. carburetor or induction icing.
d. loss of oil pressure.
e. fuel starvation.
f. electrical malfunction.
g. vacuum/pressure, and associated flight instruments malfunction.
h. pitot/static.
i. landing gear or flap malfunction.
j. inoperative trim.
k. inadvertent door or window opening.
l. structural icing.
m. smoke/fire/engine compartment fire.
n. any other emergency appropriate to the airplane.
3. Follows the appropriate checklist or procedure.

snip

I as well wonder how this would not be noticed, but my experience is
limited to one model Cessna.

* * * * * *I've flown the 150, 172, 180, 182, 185 and 206 and all
except the 180 and 185 do the same thing. The stab is in the downwash
off the flaps and the nose will rise when flaps are applied. The
snip

It have been a few years since I flew a 177 and it wasn't an RG.
However as I recall the flaps on the 177 are much smaller than most of
the other Cessnas.
They are more simlar to the flaps on the Cherokee.

I don't recall how much pitch change they induced on the 177 but
if there was a Cessna that the flaps didn't change the pitch much it
probably would be the 177.
I am sure there are a few others like possibly the C-140, C-188, etc.

Brian
CFIG/ASEL

In article ,
Michael Ash wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

When I'm teaching flapless landings, I never tell the student the flaps
failed. I just quietly place my foot on the flap lever (works well in a
PA-28) and refuse to move it :-)

On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 15:00:44 -0600, Michael Ash
wrote:

Isn't there somewhat vague a section on emergency procedures which would
allow the examiner to say, "your flaps have failed, now go land"?

My examiner called the no flap landing an emergency procedure.

He announced the flap failure while asking for the ground control
frequency on 2 mile final to New Haven.

I told him I was too busy to pull out the AF/D, and would look up the
correct frequency after landing. This was the correct answer.

At 50 ft. AGL on the no flap emergency landing, he told me to go
around, as the runway had debris on it. The go-around went well.
During the approach, I had to describe the differences in between a
no-flap landing and a normal landing. (hint: Green and White arcs,
higher turning stall speeds) I also had to answer questions on if I
would land on specific local runways with a flap failure, and why my
landing roll would be longer.