KJZI (Charleston Executive, S.C.) ILS RWY 9 DME Required

On Mar 12, 7:22*pm, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 3/12/2010 4:49 PM, wrote:

I don't intend to start descending below MDA before MAP now just
because YOU and others say FARS says it's perfectly ok.. *See my
response to Sam.

You don't *have* to descend before reaching MAP. Your statement that
it was not allowed was wrong.

My exact words "I was told" I never said it was not allowed. Could
you please point me to where I said it wasn't allowed? Big difference
and I will be the first to apologize if I said it wasn't allowed..

Below the dashed lines is my response to Bob. I am only as good as
what I am told......

Who am I to question an instructor on what I am told UNTIL discussions
of this nature come up.

Like I said I am all for learning.
================
I was also told for checkride that I couldn't go below MDA
before MAP or it's a bust. (VOR alpha at KMBO is my most common non
precision approach) so that stuck out in my mind.

wrote:
On Mar 12, 6:48 pm, Sam Spade wrote:

wrote:


Further, if you insist on remaining at MDA until the MAP at a busy Class
D airport, the tower will get ****ed off to say the least, if other
aircraft have the required visual references to leave MDA in accordance
with the provisions of 91.175 so as to land straight in.


They can get ****ed all they want Sam. I am PIC, not the
tower.......

True, but in the context of a presumption of competency and in a
cooperative spirit.

On 3/12/2010 5:32 PM, wrote:
On Mar 12, 7:22 pm, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 3/12/2010 4:49 PM, wrote:

I don't intend to start descending below MDA before MAP now just
because YOU and others say FARS says it's perfectly ok.. See my
response to Sam.

You don't *have* to descend before reaching MAP. Your statement that
it was not allowed was wrong.

My exact words "I was told" I never said it was not allowed. Could
you please point me to where I said it wasn't allowed? Big difference
and I will be the first to apologize if I said it wasn't allowed..

Sure, how about this one:

DME determines when you can go below MDA which would be at MAP not 3
minutes 12 seconds.


However, as long as you realize that it's your choice and not a requirement,
then we're in agreement.

Best Regards,

A Lieberman wrote:

On Mar 12, 7:03 pm, " wrote:

On Mar 12, 6:43 pm, Robert Moore wrote:


That's because your instructor was "teaching the checkride"and on most
check rides, you always go-missed and are never allowed to land. In real
life your goal is to land---Right?

And probably is where the problem of confusion ON ME. Since I am
based at an uncontrolled airport KMBO, Every practice approach was
done with missed so it was ingrained never go below MDA until the
MAP.

On my checkride, with the equipment I had at the time, I was only good
for ILS, LOC and DME type approaches (I didn't have ADF or GPS)

When I was taught LOC approaches at KHKS, I was told to go to MDA and
drive it in at 760 until I saw the airport which he had me pop the
hood at the MAP which happens to be at the middle marker.


Either you or your instructor have (had) a serious teaching or
understanding problem. Not knowing either of you, I can't really say
where the problem is, but the two of you really need to get together
and work-out this misunderstanding.

Unfortunately even if I wanted to, he has gone on to the airlines..

Like I told Sam and Mark, while it's good to know I can indeed descend
below MDA before MAP, I am not going to. Especially at my airport
where it's a circle to land and I just don't feel safe having to make
turns 300 feet AGL to land.


Should add for clarity before Mark and Sam get on their high horse, so
we didn't bog down KJAN traffic, we used my VFR GPS in lieu of an ADF
to work around the ADF required to identify BRENZ so I could get ILS
and LOC experience.

On my checkride, I did my approaches at KJAN (ILS, BC before
decommissioning and LOC) since I didn't have ADF to legally conduct
approaches at KHKS.

High horse? Help me out on that one.

On Mar 12, 8:06*pm, Sam Spade wrote:

Should add for clarity before Mark and Sam get on their high horse, so
we didn't bog down KJAN traffic, we used my VFR GPS in lieu of an ADF
to work around the ADF required to identify BRENZ so I could get ILS
and LOC experience.

On my checkride, I did my approaches at KJAN (ILS, BC before
decommissioning and LOC) since I didn't *have ADF to legally conduct
approaches at KHKS.

High horse? *Help me out on that one.

If you would have read the above Sam BEFORE my clarification, AND look
at the HKS approach plate it would be very clear I wasn't legal for
the approach which I am sure you would have deftly pointed out had I
not added the clarification since you are just too smart for this
common pilot that post boring videos.

It's your attitude I don't like but it's not like you even care or
need to care.

On Mar 12, 8:05*pm, Mark Hansen wrote:

DME determines when you can go below MDA which would be at MAP not 3
minutes 12 seconds.

However, as long as you realize that it's your choice and not a requirement,
then we're in agreement.

Oh we were in agreement once the FARS was pointed out. Thanks and my
apologies!!!!

Only solace I can say is the above was based on information from what
I was told and as has been pointed out, is incorrect.

I think in a nutshell, Bob nailed it, I was taught checkride scenarios
which does not necessarily reflect real world scenarios which goes to
show you that simple misunderstandings can be accounted for.

And my checkride was 8 years ago!

On Mar 12, 8:15*pm, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote:

If you want to indeed circle to land (assuming a CAT A airplane) you
indeed do not want to leave 840 until *after* the MAP if you want to
land on 35. *But, if you want to land on 17 and have that runway in
sight a mile or two prior to the airport, why would you remain at 840
instead of leaving 840 in order to make a normal descent for landing on 17?

I have to cross mid field, downwind base and final. 500 AGL is close
enough to terra firma for me.

One of my boring videos will show you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFR8zmSpIgE

Start at 4:40 and if this doesn't make it clear, I don't know what
will.

On Mar 12, 8:31*pm, " wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:15*pm, Sam Spade wrote:

wrote:
If you want to indeed circle to land (assuming a CAT A airplane) you
indeed do not want to leave 840 until *after* the MAP if you want to
land on 35. *But, if you want to land on 17 and have that runway in
sight a mile or two prior to the airport, why would you remain at 840
instead of leaving 840 in order to make a normal descent for landing on 17?

I have to cross mid field, downwind base and final. *500 AGL is close
enough to terra firma for me.

One of my boring videos will show you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFR8zmSpIgE

Start at 4:40 and if this doesn't make it clear, I don't know what
will.

Just in case Sam you are interested on landing on the 35 end at
minimums and why I hold MDA for my circle to land see
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjPOrMBrQ40

What the video shows real well is that west and south of the field,
the clouds were significantly lower then the north end of the field.
So I had to turn final much sooner so I didn't lose sight of the
field, hence a longer landing. I always have the option of slipping
to dump altitude which in this case I didn't need to do.

Watching both videos in it's entirety will give you insight on how I
run my shop during an approach and as always I do encourage input to
make me a better pilot.

wrote:
On Mar 12, 8:06 pm, Sam Spade wrote:


Should add for clarity before Mark and Sam get on their high horse, so
we didn't bog down KJAN traffic, we used my VFR GPS in lieu of an ADF
to work around the ADF required to identify BRENZ so I could get ILS
and LOC experience.

On my checkride, I did my approaches at KJAN (ILS, BC before
decommissioning and LOC) since I didn't have ADF to legally conduct
approaches at KHKS.

High horse? Help me out on that one.


If you would have read the above Sam BEFORE my clarification, AND look
at the HKS approach plate it would be very clear I wasn't legal for
the approach which I am sure you would have deftly pointed out had I
not added the clarification since you are just too smart for this
common pilot that post boring videos.

It's your attitude I don't like but it's not like you even care or
need to care.

I care as much about your view of my attitude as your concern for
control tower operations.

wrote:

On Mar 12, 8:15 pm, Sam Spade wrote:

wrote:


If you want to indeed circle to land (assuming a CAT A airplane) you
indeed do not want to leave 840 until *after* the MAP if you want to
land on 35. But, if you want to land on 17 and have that runway in
sight a mile or two prior to the airport, why would you remain at 840
instead of leaving 840 in order to make a normal descent for landing on 17?


I have to cross mid field, downwind base and final. 500 AGL is close
enough to terra firma for me.

One of my boring videos will show you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFR8zmSpIgE

Start at 4:40 and if this doesn't make it clear, I don't know what
will.

Repeating myself: if you have 17 in sight a mile or two prior to the
MDA why would you not align yourself with the runway and descend
straight ahead in a normal descent for landing?