Are they phasing out the S-3 too?

Lana- Which is why CVN's tend to stay in deep water far offshore.
BRBR

A CVN, is far more 'protected' in noisy shallow water than deep water, with
regards to a diesel sitting there, sonar recieve open.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

When the balloon goes up with China, hopefully we will destroy the diesels in
port before they end up in the straights.

If anybody thinks China is our best buddy, needs to get a clue.
P. C. Chisholm
CDR, USN(ret.)
Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter and Combat Buckeye Phlyer

----------
In article ,
isme (NimBill) wrote:

Whoever wrote what you replied to is an idiot. Diesel subs are noisy only
while
surfaced to recharge batteries but once submerged are extremely difficult to
detect.

Well, to split hairs, _some_ diesel subs are noisy even submerged on
batteries. Keep in mind that a lot of diesel subs operating today are very
old. However, it is safe to say that the most modern diesels are
essentially silent while on batteries.


China being so close to Taiwan could launch Diesl subs carrying ground troops
all the way across the straights in numbers large enough to take over Taiwan
with few being detected.

This is nonsense. Have you bothered to actually _count_ the number of subs
that China has?

How about you go and do some research and get back to us when you've done
that?




D

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 09:33:47 -0500, Andrew C. Toppan
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 00:16:14 -0500, wrote:

Whoever wrote what you replied to is an idiot. Diesel subs are noisy only while
surfaced to recharge batteries but once submerged are extremely difficult to
detect.

I seem to recall that they are rather loud when snorting, too.

"surfaced to recharge" and "snorting" are pretty much the same thing
in terms of noise - the diesel is running.

Actually, they are not. One is dramatically more noisy than the
other.

Once you turn off the
diesel, they can be very, very quiet indeed.

Yup. And they are also slow and working against the clock.

Bill Kambic

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:47:35 -0500, wrote:

Yup. And they are also slow and working against the clock

Slow is a relative thing; if one doesn't need to go far, speed is not
a problem. Time is not as much an issue as it once was; modern diesel
boats can stay under for quite a long time. This ain't WWII anymore.

--
Andrew Toppan --- --- "I speak only for myself"
"Haze Gray & Underway" - Naval History, DANFS, World Navies Today,
Photo Features, Military FAQs, and more - http://www.hazegray.org/

On 29 Jan 2005 14:44:12 GMT, (Pechs1) wrote:

Lana- Which is why CVN's tend to stay in deep water far offshore.
BRBR

A CVN, is far more 'protected' in noisy shallow water than deep water, with
regards to a diesel sitting there, sonar recieve open.

Well, yes and no. In noisy, target infested shallow water the sub has
a much harder time identifying a target. If the CV is using any
"deception tactics" the problem is magnified for the sub skipper.

On the other hand, in shallow, restricted waters the sub hunters have
a similar problem. The CV may also have significant navigation
problems. If the sub is lucky and can get himself within range of one
of his weapons then he might get a "free shot."

In deep water you have more quiet (beneficial to hunter and hunted)
but gives the target more room to manuever and, if the sub is not
lucky, will probably never reach a firing position.

The diesel sub is not an empty threat, but neither is it a seven foot
giant.

Bill Kambic

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:57:31 -0500, Andrew C. Toppan
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:47:35 -0500, wrote:

Yup. And they are also slow and working against the clock

Slow is a relative thing; if one doesn't need to go far, speed is not
a problem. Time is not as much an issue as it once was; modern diesel
boats can stay under for quite a long time. This ain't WWII anymore.

Indeed. But once you go to battery you are working against a finite
limit. In WWII that limit may be been in the 24-36 hour range and by
'62 had progressed to the 96 hour range. I have no idea what it is
today. But that finite limit is still there.

If the sub is just trying to hide then the time can be long. If he
has to move that time dramatically shrinks.

Bill Kambic

wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:57:31 -0500, Andrew C. Toppan
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:47:35 -0500, wrote:

Yup. And they are also slow and working against the clock

Slow is a relative thing; if one doesn't need to go far, speed is not
a problem. Time is not as much an issue as it once was; modern diesel
boats can stay under for quite a long time. This ain't WWII anymore.

Indeed. But once you go to battery you are working against a finite
limit. In WWII that limit may be been in the 24-36 hour range and by
'62 had progressed to the 96 hour range. I have no idea what it is
today. But that finite limit is still there.

For the AIP subs coming into service now, it's a looong time. See

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/...propulsion.htm

OTOH, I don't know how noisy they might be.

Guy

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:47:16 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:57:31 -0500, Andrew C. Toppan
wrote:

On Sat, 29 Jan 2005 11:47:35 -0500, wrote:

Yup. And they are also slow and working against the clock

Slow is a relative thing; if one doesn't need to go far, speed is not
a problem. Time is not as much an issue as it once was; modern diesel
boats can stay under for quite a long time. This ain't WWII anymore.

Indeed. But once you go to battery you are working against a finite
limit. In WWII that limit may be been in the 24-36 hour range and by
'62 had progressed to the 96 hour range. I have no idea what it is
today. But that finite limit is still there.

For the AIP subs coming into service now, it's a looong time. See

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/...propulsion.htm

OTOH, I don't know how noisy they might be.

And therein lay an interesting question. :-)

I have some suspicians, but don't have any insider info.

If you are running on batteries then you are very quiet if you stay
slow. If you go fast you drain your batteries AND you cavitate.
Cavitation gives the hunder a detection opportunity.

Like I say, non-nuke subs are a real and substantial threat. They
are not, however, an ultimate threat.

Bill Kambic

In article ,
wrote:


The submarines from other countries are diesel and noisy and
therefore not all that much of a threat.

Not a bubblehead but the biggest threat today is from Chinese diesels,
runningon battery power, in the Tiawan straights, waiting for a CV..P. C.
ChisholmCDR, USN(ret.)Old Phart Phormer Phantom, Turkey, Viper, Scooter
and
Combat Buckeye Phlyer

Whoever wrote what you replied to is an idiot. Diesel subs are noisy only
while
surfaced to recharge batteries but once submerged are extremely difficult to
detect.

I seem to recall that they are rather loud when snorting, too.

The term is "snorkeling," and yes, from a passive acoustical standpoint,
when running their engines, they are just as detectable on the surface
as when snorkeling.



--Mike