Flight Simulator now being used by flight instructors

"Ed Forsythe" wrote in message
...
Nancy,
Try explaining how *easy* it is to an eminently qualified student who has
washed out of the USAF or USN flight training programs.
--
Happy Flying,
Ed

Hi Ed,

You can add US Army to that as well. Like you, I was also introduced to
"sims" (I use the term loosely G) via the Link Trainer--Blue Canoe?? G--
back in the 50s. Army got some old ones from the USAF--(thanks, I think) G

I hated those things, but they sure did help with procedural items. No way
could you say they taught you to fly--ANYTHING.

Paul

snip
Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior to
flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling effect
it will have with respect to primary flight training.

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.
snip

Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version
- and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin
some flying lessons for real.

With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor
with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the
information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground
school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to
have the physics and basic principles taken care of.

I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no
problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for
situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're
staring at a computer monitor)

So although simming may or may not teach the physical aspects and
feeling of flying it sure does give you a headstart on a lot of the
topics.

At the end of the day it's a simulation, my chair don't move and my
stick don't give me feedback but I am obviously learning from it (and
enjoying it)

"Chris Norris" wrote in message
...

snip
Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training prior
to
flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling
effect
it will have with respect to primary flight training.

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can
provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to
learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.
snip

Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version
- and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin
some flying lessons for real.

With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor
with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the
information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground
school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to
have the physics and basic principles taken care of.

At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented and
are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by
telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that
may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money and
deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in.

I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no
problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for
situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're
staring at a computer monitor)

Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision
for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a
candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head
out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight,
your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion,
traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check
instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that
you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a
requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the
grade relying on it as you suggest.

So although simming may or may not teach the physical aspects and
feeling of flying it sure does give you a headstart on a lot of the
topics.

Reading a few good books will do that, without conditioning you to
constantly face front.

At the end of the day it's a simulation, my chair don't move and my
stick don't give me feedback but I am obviously learning from it (and
enjoying it)

Happy landings.

"kallijaa" wrote in message
...

"Chris Norris" wrote in message
...

snip
Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training
prior
to
flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling
effect
it will have with respect to primary flight training.

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can
provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances
they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to
learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.
snip

Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version
- and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin
some flying lessons for real.

With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor
with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the
information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground
school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to
have the physics and basic principles taken care of.

At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented
and
are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by
telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake that
may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money
and
deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in.

I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no
problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for
situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're
staring at a computer monitor)

Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision
for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a
candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head
out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact
flight,
your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion,
traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check
instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that
you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a
requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the
grade relying on it as you suggest.

Just like I do in the sim! G

Dashii

"Dashii" wrote in message
...

"kallijaa" wrote in message
...

"Chris Norris" wrote in message
...

snip
Through simming, you could gain some useful IFR procedural training
prior
to
flight, but don't kid yourself that it would be worth the crippling
effect
it will have with respect to primary flight training.

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can
provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the
real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances
they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to
learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.
snip

Well, I have been simming with MS-FS since the 'green sticks' version
- and two years ago I stepped into the cockpit of a Cessna to begin
some flying lessons for real.

With all those simming hours clocked up I impressed the instructor
with my instant ability able to read the gauges and understand the
information they presented. We had a pretty good discussion in ground
school and he even asked if I had taken lessons before as I seemed to
have the physics and basic principles taken care of.

At most private flying schools, most instructors will be sales oriented
and
are apt to tickle your ear. They are not likely to chase you away by
telling you that your experience with flight simulation was a mistake
that
may cause serious problems. The drill is to sign you up, get your money
and
deal with your problems, in that order. That's the business they're in.

I just don't agree with your 'crippling effect' comment as I had no
problems flying the Cessna for real and using peripheral vision for
situation awareness (something that's obviously missing when you're
staring at a computer monitor)

Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral
vision
for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been
a
candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your
head
out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact
flight,
your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion,
traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check
instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so
that
you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be
a
requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make
the
grade relying on it as you suggest.

Just like I do in the sim! G

Dashii

Oh, really? I recall you describing how you use "outside views." How do
you access those outside views and where are your eyes focused during that
process? Let me guess: You switch to outside view using your keyboard or a
switch on your flight controls. Am I getting warm? Then you look at those
outside views on the same display used to view the instrument panel and the
slim strip of the sim world atop. Warmer?

By that process you are training your head to habitually remain stationary
and your eyes to look forward at all times. Those are the kind of habits
that hinder progress in flight training.

Kalijaa

"kallijaa" wrote in
:


Oh, really? I recall you describing how you use "outside views." How
do you access those outside views and where are your eyes focused
during that process? Let me guess: You switch to outside view using
your keyboard or a switch on your flight controls. Am I getting warm?
Then you look at those outside views on the same display used to view
the instrument panel and the slim strip of the sim world atop.
Warmer?

By that process you are training your head to habitually remain
stationary and your eyes to look forward at all times. Those are the
kind of habits that hinder progress in flight training.

Kalijaa


Oh, give me a ****ing break! Are you honestly trying to argue that
instructors have to train somebody to turn their heads because they lost
this ability through simming?

Those of us who transition between auto transmission cars, standard
trucks, and motorcycles on a routine basis would call you a moron. So would
the helo pilots who later obtained a fixed-wing rating. These are far more
involved, and much more ingrained as habits, than anything you might
develop in a sim. Moreover, flight instructors are used to dealing with
people that have no concept of aerodynamics, instrumentation, or thinking
in three dimensions, and flight schooling is geared around that, very
specifically. Arguing that 'changing views' is looked upon as a habit that
needs to be broken is unbelieveably ignorant.


- Al.

--
To reply, insert dash in address to separate G and I in the domain

Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision
for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a
candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head
out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact flight,
your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion,
traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check
instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so that
you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a
requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make the
grade relying on it as you suggest.

Thank you for your candid opinions on my flying ability. Yeah, I
remember you sitting in the back watching my every move during the
lessons.

For your information I value my life and so the instructor did not
have to tell me to look around regularly and before manoevring.
Do you really imagine I sat there and only looked at the panel and
through the front windshield, with my head fixed and eyes forward like
a freakin crash test dummy or something?

I think a lot of people can tell the difference between sitting at a
computer desk and sitting in a cockpit. I know I can and I'm starting
to wonder if you cannot and therefore are taking it out on the fine
people in this group?

Anyway, this whole discussion wasn't about just turning one's head. It
was about using FS as a training aid. For instance you can read a
mutlitude of books on navigation but putting theory into practice and
using the instruments and charts for real is a different ball game and
requires hours of practice. All I'm saying is that as a training aid
FS is a valuble addition to ground school and you can practice
whenever you like.

Chris Norris

"Chris Norris" wrote in message
...

Peripheral vision? If you had persistently relied upon peripheral vision
for situation awareness at a military flying school you would have been a
candidate for elimination. You would have been taught to "keep your head
out of the cockpit and on a swivel." In other words, during contact
flight,
your instructor would want to see your head up and in constant motion,
traversing a very wide angle . You would be taught to cross check
instruments quickly and return to the routine of turning your head so
that
you could see directly your situation. Good peripheral vision would be a
requirement for your acceptance in the program, but you would not make
the
grade relying on it as you suggest.

Thank you for your candid opinions on my flying ability. Yeah, I
remember you sitting in the back watching my every move during the
lessons.

For your information I value my life and so the instructor did not
have to tell me to look around regularly and before manoevring.

Good for you.

Do you really imagine I sat there and only looked at the panel and
through the front windshield, with my head fixed and eyes forward like
a freakin crash test dummy or something?

I know that this will be hard for you to take and I really don't want to
upset you, but the fact is, you have not been uppermost in my mind.
Moreover, I hadn't so much as imagined your existance till now and am having
difficulty with the concept at present. In general, however, the behavior
you mention is typical of new student pilots.

I think a lot of people can tell the difference between sitting at a
computer desk and sitting in a cockpit. I know I can and I'm starting
to wonder if you cannot and therefore are taking it out on the fine
people in this group?

Good for you. Thinking and wondering should help you to sort it all out.

Anyway, this whole discussion wasn't about just turning one's head. It
was about using FS as a training aid.
For instance you can read a
mutlitude of books on navigation but putting theory into practice and
using the instruments and charts for real is a different ball game and
requires hours of practice.

All I'm saying is that as a training aid
FS is a valuble addition to ground school and you can practice
whenever you like.

Chris Norris

Apparently, you have not bothered to read the entire thread. Do that and a
little more thinking and wondering.

Kalijaa

O
For your information I value my life and so the instructor did not
have to tell me to look around regularly and before manoevring.

Good for you.

Yes it was good for me in that I scanned the instruments and scanned
outside in a regular manner without hitting anything. In fact you
could say 'Very good for you'. Like five portions of vegetables a day
or eating a fibre-rich cereal.

I know that this will be hard for you to take

Not really, I have a life and friends and a good woman. My world
encompasses more than this newsgroup and, well, you!

, but the fact is, you have not been uppermost in my mind.

Big deal. Like that means something to me.


Good for you. Thinking and wondering should help you to sort it all out.


Is there an echo in here? Yes, maybe more people should think before
posting to newsgroups...

Apparently, you have not bothered to read the entire thread. Do that and a
little more thinking and wondering.

A great man has written! Not only do you know of my flying lessons you
also know of my computer usage like you have sat next to me and taken
notes. Yet we are strangers and may come from different lands.
What will the prophet say next?

// No I didn't bother to read the entire thread, I just pick posts at
random and write nonsense. //

Naturally I read all preceding posts before commenting to avoid saying
something which would brand me a 'donkey' or to draw what is commonly
known as 'flame posts' written by 'trolls' who like to cause
unnecessary arguments.

Good day to you Sir, I shall retire to the drawing room where I will
partake in a session of Microsoft Flight Simulator version 2004: A
Century of Flight and continue to practice navigation in conjunction
with my Jeppesen charts of the European countries.

Chris

S Herman wrote in message
...
In article ,
"kallijaa" wrote:

Simming can be a lot of fun and it is an engrossing hobby. It can
provide
simulated flight experience to those who cannot participate in the real
thing, but for non-flyers it can hinder or even destroy any chances they
might have at success in subsequent flying training. If you want to
learn
to fly in the real world, put the toy away.

Kalijaa

I don't know that it will permanently damage anyone, BUT - I am a new
student (~12 hours). My instructor told me to stop using the flight sim
when I mentioned i had been a fan of them for years. i dont have the
time now any way!

Since the panel ususally fills most of the screen on the sim, your main
clues are the instruments. So, i will agree that it appears that my
penchant for observing the instruments is not helping me learn the
visual and physical clues for performing the basic manuevers. Most of
the manuevers for the PTS seem to be much harder to execute by
instrument!

And of course, i have to add that my real flying has inmproved my flight
simming greatly! :-) just kidding!

Same here. My experience with flight simulators around 1983 was a major
factor in deciding to get my PPL. I was rarely able to land the sim
successfully until after I learned to land the real plane!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ