ASK 21 spin ballast installation

Getting into this conversation late, sorry.

At the Air Force Academy they used the ASK-21 for spin training (back in the
days when the 2-33 was their basic trainer). They had tables to determine
the exact amount of tail ballast to install based on pilot weights, and then
the thing spun like crazy. Without the weights, it is a good trainer for
all other purposes, and didn't spin so well.

It spun as well as the Lark IS-28B2 I used to instruct in. Quick entry,
wrapped up nice and tight, and made an honest recovery.

Agree with those who say spin training is essential, and the ASK-21 is a
good trainer for that, if configured properly.

Bullwinkle
CFIG

On 2/28/06 4:48 PM, in article , "Mark
Lenox" wrote:


All pilots need to be taught spin recognition, and recovery. Preferably
in an aircraft that spins really well, like an L-13/23 for example. I
really don't like the idea of adding the spin ballast to the K-21 to teach
spins. Just use something else.

I own an ASK-21, and love it dearly. It is an outstanding aircraft. When
my children get old enough to learn to fly it, I will be quite comfortable
letting them. I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.



Mark Lenox
CFIG


"John Doe" wrote in message
...
At risk of re-starting the age old argument about spin
training, I'll bite.

I trained in a combination of Grob 103's and K-13's
(both of which spin, although both produce variable
results), my first solo's were in a Grob 103, fortunately
I was extremely aware of spinning and exactly what
these gliders would do if provoked and hence was extremely
careful about treating it gently. If I wasn't careful
I wouldn't have been sent solo (I hope).

Fast forward several years, Husbands Bosworth, Half
Cat course (roughly UK equivalent of CFIG). It's the
last day, time for 'blogs' check rides. The scenario,
the course instructor (who shall remain nameless except
for he's on the BGA safety committee) in from is playing
a just post Silver pilot, annual check, we tow off
in a K21, up to height, and true to form he starts
acting up, mal co-ordinating turns almost stalling/spinning.
My response, taking example from what my instructors
in the past had done, was to let him fly sloppily,
occasionally chastising him, even though the only reason
we weren't spinning was the K21's handling.

Naturally on the ground I received a good 15 minute
'talking to' (it was too polite and calm for an ear-bashing)
on how if he'd done that in anything else (especially
the Puchaz's we'd been flying previously), he'd have
spun us several times. Needless to say I learned from
that (along with subsequent instructing).

It is all too easy to fall into the trap of allowing
sloppy flying in a K21 because it's 'nice' and 'safe'.
If he'd been a solo pilot in a Disucs, he'd have spun
himself and if it had been on final turn....

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Remember - If you, as a (presumably) experienced instructor,
are getting uncomfortable with something they are doing
you should be taking over. Your tolerances are much
bigger than theirs should be (for basic training at
least), so training them to keep within their limits
involves taking control before you get to a do-or-die
situation.

*Flame retardand suit on*

Cheers

Jamie Denton


p.s. Before anyone points it out, of course you need
to teach advanced, close to the limit, stuff at some
point, but a first solo pilot doesn't need to be a
practised hedge hopper, they need to be able to stay
in safe easy limits (like not going out of range of
the field or not postponing starting circuit below
800ft for example).
At 12:54 28 February 2006,
wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage
over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights?
Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying
lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their
first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was
this just a
misplaced reply for the 'most ugliest gliders in the
world'-thread? :-)

wrote:
Charles, are you saying that the PW-6 has an advantage over the ASK-21
because it actually CAN spin WITHOUT the spin weights? Rrrright....
what an advantage.

If that is actually true than I would not teach flying lessons in the
PW-6 and neither give students the permission for their first solo
flight...

Otherwise, as Marc said, completely off-topic. Or was this just a
misplaced reply for the "most ugliest gliders in the world"-thread? :-)

Well you could always put it on chocks and teach them that way. Very
safe then.

BTW do you have some hard evidence to suggest that students and
instructors are killing themselves spinning in in "spinable" gliders,
particularly if not practicing spinning? If not, then lets not
disseminate fear.

If you think the risk is to great perhaps you should question whether
instructing is for you.

Paul

Mark Lenox wrote:

I'll teach them spin awareness in something else.

*If* you have something else at your hands.

Fact is, many European clubs have the ASK 21 as primary trainer and
nothing else. Besides, I think it's a good idea to practice spins in a
glider which the student already knows. You can combine this with an
impressive demonstration how glider characteristics change with CofG.
And last but not least, the ASK 21 spins wonderfully with that tail
ballast. I don't see any disadvantages.

Stefan

I'll be blunt here, and for that I make no apologies,
if you are not capable of running a safe and informative
basic lesson in a spinnable trainer, you do not have
the skills to be an instructor, and if you would not
trust your pupil to be safe in that same trainer on
their first solo, you have not done your job as an
instructor.

Jamie, I agree.

The standard at the club I learned at was to only teach spin recognition and
recovery. We have Bergfalkes for trainers, with post solo types getting advanced
training in a Blanik L13.

Consider this scenario:

The Bergfalke will theoretically spin, although we do not permit intentional
spins in them. Bloggs has made the old 1956 'III shudder and shake at 56km/h
indicated and the yaw string all over the place 'thermalling' in training.
Without an aerobatic entry, she simply refuses to even enter an incipient spin.

Bloggs is a little ham fisted but gets sent solo after a couple of demonstrated
incipient recoveries in the L13.

A couple of months later Bloggs is flying at a different club, or with a K13 and
a hoary old CFI. Said CFI is well endowed with large amounts of RLC (Rat Like
Cunning) and a wicked sense of humour. Or Bloggs gets to fly with me, who
learned something from such a CFI. So Bloggs gets to do a check flight and is
swanning about a little sloppily, but perfectly safely. CFI gets Bloggs to
initiate a gentle turn and distracts him while surreptitiously moving the trim
lever back. Then the speed bleeds off and the "reasonably coordinated" turn is
now over ruddered. People are suggestible so - At the precise/appropriate moment
the instructor only has to complain pointedly about the yaw string, while
mentioning too little bank as the problem (as opposed to too much rudder) and
Bloggs does the rest. Mind goes, observe yaw string is in the outside corner,
leave the rudder where it is, and apply copious into turn aileron.

If you have timed it right the down going aileron stalls the outside wing, yaws
the nose up and you enter a spin around the outside wing. The root of which is
now partially in the lee of the fuselage, so the stall is over a large part of
the wing. This can be quite violent, even in a K13.

Bloggs has just learned you don't have to be cross controlled to spin, and that
you don't automatically apply rudder opposite to the direction you were turning,
unless you like the earth to rotate like that...

This is in a "docile" trainer.

This works best low down where the horizon is higher, or where you can make the
turn towards rising ground, so that Bloggs tends to raise the nose to keep the
apparent attitude constant. Unfamiliar terrain, or aircraft or other
distractions make it easier.

Our instruction patter emphasises well banked turns near the ground. The theory
being that there is less chance of a spin entry, and the recovery is much
quicker. All this is true, but the exercise above demonstrates that the pilot
who has set it up wrong can kill himself correcting a poorly executed low turn.

Good thing to be exposed to some instructors who know how to teach full spins
and recovery. That way you get to learn to think about recovery from the context
- aircraft type and configuration (C of G flaps? flapperons? ballast? engine
out? airbrakes?)
- meteorology (wind gradient? turbulence/rotor? curl over? ice?)
- how you entered the spin. (aerobatic? slow turn? thermalling? from level?)
- how the aircraft is spinning (flat? vertical? inverted? unstable?)

There are more but you get the idea.

The permutations all make the recovery different, best to know how to do this
before you are gyrating earthward...

I will never understand people who think it is sufficient to teach a single,
artificial incipient spin entry and recovery mode. Instructors should do a
propper job of teaching.

I am not personally particularly fond of spinning but I have made a point of
being as proficient as I can be in the types I fly. With understanding comes
safety. Put another way -- That way other people tend to be less nervous of you
being above them in a gaggle in a Cirrus ;-)

--
Bruce Greeff
Std Cirrus #57
I'm no-T at the address above.

I forgot to add: Most Clubs I know don't use the tail ballast to
demonstrate spins to students anyway, but to do primary aerobatic training.

One of the wonderful things of the ASK 21 is its versability: Docile
primary trainer, capable aerobatic trainer, certified for cloud flying.
One size fits all.


Stefan
(who learnt to fly in an ASK 21, who learnt to spin in an ASK 21 and who
gained his aerobatic rating in an ASK 21)

ASK-21 is unspinable.

??? Curious. I have two ASK-21s in Civil Air Patrol, Colorado wing.
While I do not go out of my way to do spins in them, they DO spin.
Recovery is straight forward in the normal way.

One of the ASK-21s came used from the Air Force Academy. It has
the weights and mounting hardward to "enhance" its spin characteristics.
I have never felt the need to use them... a student pilots practicing
stall recognition and recovery... with crossed controls is usually
able to enter the incipient spin all by them selves!

Best regards,

LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, Colorado Wing Checkpilot (airplanes and gliders),
Assistant Glider Program Manager, Colorado Wing, CAP

--
LtCol Jer/ Eberhard, CO-Wing, Thompson Valley CS., Ft Collins, CO
CELL/VM: 970 231-6325, CELL Message: 9702316325atmmode.com
EMAIL: jeratfrii.com WEB: WEB http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

At 09:25 01 March 2006, Stefan wrote:
I forgot to add: Most Clubs I know don't use the tail
ballast to
demonstrate spins to students anyway, but to do primary
aerobatic
training.

One of the wonderful things of the ASK 21 is its versability:
Docile
primary trainer, capable aerobatic trainer, certified
for cloud flying.
One size fits all.


Stefan
(who learnt to fly in an ASK 21, who learnt to spin
in an ASK 21 and
who
gained his aerobatic rating in an ASK 21)

Stefan
Now, you have my attention. Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics? The ASK flys well inverted and will spin
well inverted, all
without tail ballast. Why would you add tail ballast
for loops and rolls?
Sounds almost counter productive.
Chuck

Chuck Griswold wrote:

Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics?

You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
Chuck Griswold wrote:

Why would you use tail
ballast to instruct
aerobatics?

You wouldn't have guessed it: To do simple erect spins.

I am aware that some pilots claim to have been able to spin the 21
without the tail ballast. I'm not among them.

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
tried it (and I weigh 95 kg or so):

Establish a stable slip, nose slightly higher than normal, for purposes
of this discussion, left wing down. Apply full left rudder, at same
time move stick fully right and back. No need to jerk the controls,
quick smooth movements are all that is needed. You might have to play
with the slip angle a bit...

Marc Ramsey wrote:

Technique that has worked for me in just about every 21 or 103 I've
....

Thanks, I'll try that as soon as spring is coming. Not exactly the kind
of spin entry you're looking for in an aerobatic program, though.

Stefan