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#31
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 10:31:45 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
What about the weight of the horizontal stabilizer?Â* Given that it produces negative lift and contributes to the bending loads on the main spar, is it considered a lifting part or part of the non lifting components? On 10/19/2018 5:52 AM, Jonathan Walker wrote: At 01:37 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote: That TN doesn't increase the max weight without water, which is the limiting number for this particular glider and the number that is not in the manual. Unless I am missing something all you need to know is the particular gliders actual (not assumed manufactured) weight of the non-lifting parts. The max pilot (actually payload, pilot / parachute / ballast weights / onboard snacks etc) weight is then the lower of: a) Weight of the actual non-lifting parts subtract from the manuals max non-lifting parts weight of 230kg (507lbs). Or b) 115kg (253.4lbs) which the manuals max pilot weight. Or c) The max all up weight less the empty weight (very unlikely to come into play) This all assumes that the empty CofG limit is inside the manual limitations. The max weight without water is not relevant and most new aircraft don't list it. You know the max non-lifting parts weight (the critical point due to bending loads), and the max all up weight inc water (undercarriage/structural and flight stress loads), then the difference has to be all in the wings. The aircraft doesn't know if the wings weight is structure or water so is happy to fly! -- Dan, 5J "Max weight of non lifting components (everything except wings)" - from BGA TCDS. Flight manual is silent on what it is. From https://members.gliding.co.uk/wp-con...312108_4-1.pdf , "AMP4-1/Nov 05 BGA AMP Part 4, Leaflet 4-1, Page 1 BGA AIRWORTHINESS AND MAINTENANCE PROCEDURES PART 4, LEAFLET 4-1 GLIDER WEIGHT AND BALANCE", "on-Lifting Parts: "For sailplanes where the Leading Particulars specify a maximum weight of non-lifting parts, it will additionally be necessary to weigh the wings to enable the weight of the fuselage and tailplane to be calculated; this is the empty weight of non-lifting parts. " CS-22 doesn't appear to talk about it. |
#32
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
Jonathan: I agree that the max weight without water shouldn't be relevant, but I'm not the one that needs to be convinced. The last two people to do weight and balance for this glider both used the number from the TCDS.
805-609=196 lbs max pilot weight. How do I convince someone to ignore the number in the TCDS? |
#33
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
At 17:19 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote:
Jonathan: I agree that the max weight without water shouldn't be relevant, but I'm not the one that needs to be convinced. The last two people to do weight and balance for this glider both used the number from the TCDS. 805-609=196 lbs max pilot weight. How do I convince someone to ignore the number in the TCDS? You need to do the sums and see what the max pilot weight comes out at first. ie. the max non lifting part less the current non lifting parts. It may be that comes to 196lbs or have you already done those numbers? Without this you cannot move forward. It could even be that the max pilot weight is less than 196lbs!!!! If the previous paperwork doesn't have the current weight of the non lifting parts then there would be a suspicion that the calculations haven't been done correctly. Not uncommon..... |
#34
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
A simple weighing should put this all to rest.Â* Two bathroom scales
should get you very close if you don't have access to proper aircraft scales. 1.Â* Weigh each wing separately using two bathroom scales. 2.Â* Weigh the fuselage separately using two bathroom scales, one under each end of the wing leading edge. 3.Â* Weigh the horizontal tail separately using one bathroom scale. The total of the above three is the total empty weight. With a little juggling of the numbers and a few arithmetic steps you should easily get your answers. On 10/19/2018 12:19 PM, Jonathan Walker wrote: At 17:19 19 October 2018, Ouroboros wrote: Jonathan: I agree that the max weight without water shouldn't be relevant, but I'm not the one that needs to be convinced. The last two people to do weight and balance for this glider both used the number from the TCDS. 805-609=196 lbs max pilot weight. How do I convince someone to ignore the number in the TCDS? You need to do the sums and see what the max pilot weight comes out at first. ie. the max non lifting part less the current non lifting parts. It may be that comes to 196lbs or have you already done those numbers? Without this you cannot move forward. It could even be that the max pilot weight is less than 196lbs!!!! If the previous paperwork doesn't have the current weight of the non lifting parts then there would be a suspicion that the calculations haven't been done correctly. Not uncommon..... -- Dan, 5J |
#35
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 1:19:37 PM UTC-4, Ouroboros wrote:
Jonathan: I agree that the max weight without water shouldn't be relevant, but I'm not the one that needs to be convinced. The last two people to do weight and balance for this glider both used the number from the TCDS. 805-609=196 lbs max pilot weight. How do I convince someone to ignore the number in the TCDS? I would start by explaining that the flight manual provided by the builder is the controlling document. If in doubt, ask Schleicher. Then I would weigh all the parts and do the sums. UH |
#36
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 2:46:15 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
A simple weighing should put this all to rest.Â* Two bathroom scales should get you very close if you don't have access to proper aircraft scales. 1.Â* Weigh each wing separately using two bathroom scales. 2.Â* Weigh the fuselage separately using two bathroom scales, one under each end of the wing leading edge. Dan, 5J I would weigh the fuselage using two scales, one under the main wheel, one under the tail wheel, not under the wing leading edge? |
#37
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
Yeah, I went back to put in the mention about leading edges and I put it
in the wrong sentence.Â* My purpose was that, due to the rest of the content of this thread, I doubt some people understand the whole concept.Â* Maybe draw a picture... On 10/19/2018 2:53 PM, Dan Daly wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2018 at 2:46:15 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote: A simple weighing should put this all to rest.Â* Two bathroom scales should get you very close if you don't have access to proper aircraft scales. 1.Â* Weigh each wing separately using two bathroom scales. 2.Â* Weigh the fuselage separately using two bathroom scales, one under each end of the wing leading edge. Dan, 5J I would weigh the fuselage using two scales, one under the main wheel, one under the tail wheel, not under the wing leading edge? -- Dan, 5J |
#38
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
My partner talked to Rex at Williams Soaring today. He told us that, for standard certificate gliders at least, the data in the TCDS takes precedent. So 805 pounds really is the maximum weight of the glider without water. Too bad, as that really limits the useful load of the 19s I've looked at.
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#39
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
My favorite donut shop is going to miss me. 😢😢😢
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#40
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ASW-19 Maximum Weight
Why and by whom was that limit introduced? It isn't on the original LBA TCDS for the 19 or 19B as far as I can see from the versions on the BGA website.
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