FAR:Safety Pilot & High Performance/Complex?

On Thu, 7 Aug 2003 22:01:22 GMT, Andrew Koenig wrote:

Unless you hold an instructor or ATP certificate, you can only
log PIC time for the period during which you are the sole
manipulator of the controls.

Robert Not true... if more than one pilot is required (pilot and safety
Robert pilot) either one may be the PIC and log PIC.

Hmmm... other posters differ from you on that.

I think you're right -- you need separate endorsements for each
kind of high-performance airplane.

Robert Not true, an endorsement in a Cessna 210 is good for a Bonanza.

That's because a Cessna 210 is both kinds at once, so if you're endorsed
for a 210, you effectively have both endorsements.

On the other hand, if you're endorsed for a Cessna 177RG, I don't
think that endorsement is valid for a 182.

The 177 has less than 200 HP?

If it does then the 182 might not be valid for the 177 RG.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

As you have already seen, lots of people seem to remember private
interpretations or letters from the FAA ruling one way or another.

The regulations say that you have to be rated in category and class to act
as safety pilot. That means a pilot certified for airplane single engine
land can act as safety pilot in any single engine land airplane, from a
Pilatus PC-12 to a Cessna 152. The appropriate FAR says:

(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight
unless --

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at
least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings
appropriate to the aircraft being flown.



There is no regulatory requirement that you be able to act as PIC in order
to log PIC under any circumstances. In fact the FARs are quite clear about
when you may log PIC:


(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A recreational, private, or
commercial pilot may log pilot-in- command time only for that flight time
during which that person --

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the
pilot is rated;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an
aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type
certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is
conducted.



A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not. Others in the
FAA or anywhere else may differ in their personal opinions and may even have
written letters or articles stating their opinions, but those letters and
articles are just that: opinions. It should be remembered that many of these
people are attempting to enforce their opinion when they could not get their
ideas enacted in the regulations. They lost in committee and review, so now
they are attempting to mold public behavior through threats and
intimidation.

If the regulations do not mean what they say, then the regulations need to
be amended. Until then, the regulations have the force of law.

All of that being the case, my own personal opinion is that any pilot would
be very foolish to attempt to act as safety pilot in any airplane that he
was not fully qualified to operate. I think the regulations should be
changed. But right now the regulations are specific: you may act as safety
pilot and log PIC while doing it. There are no loopholes, gray areas, or
private interpretations here that make a convincing argument that the
regulations do not permit it.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally
be PIC.

Ron is entirely correct on this. I have heard this many times during
pilot examiner school in OKC. The policy statements explained to me
from AFS-640 are very clear about this. You must be totally qualified
and legal to fly the bird by yourself in order to log PIC as a safety
pilot. (medical, category and class, flight review, and proper 61.31
endorsements) The regulations themselves are clear: In order to BE
the PIC and be the safety pilot, (and thats the only way a non-CFI,
non-manipulator can log PIC time in single pilot airplanes as a safety
pilot), you must meet ALL the prerequisites.


On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:47:33 -0400, "Ron Natalie"
wrote:


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log PIC
for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high performance
airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not legally
be PIC.

"Bill Zaleski" wrote in message
...
| Ron is entirely correct on this. I have heard this many times during
| pilot examiner school in OKC. The policy statements explained to me
| from AFS-640 are very clear about this. You must be totally qualified
| and legal to fly the bird by yourself in order to log PIC as a safety
| pilot. (medical, category and class, flight review, and proper 61.31
| endorsements) The regulations themselves are clear: In order to BE
| the PIC and be the safety pilot, (and thats the only way a non-CFI,
| non-manipulator can log PIC time in single pilot airplanes as a safety
| pilot), you must meet ALL the prerequisites.
|

No dice. Policy statements and wishful thinking are not regulations. Show me
a regulation, please.

No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that
requires
only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not
legally
be PIC.


Right. Which brings me back to a question I had earlier. Is there ever a
circumstance that a pilot can log PIC time when he is not certified,
endorsed or current in that aircraft? I can't think of a case but maybe I'm
overlooking something.
--
Jim Burns III

Remove "nospam" to reply

"Jim" wrote in message news
Right. Which brings me back to a question I had earlier. Is there ever a
circumstance that a pilot can log PIC time when he is not certified,
endorsed or current in that aircraft? I can't think of a case but maybe I'm
overlooking something.
--
Sure there is. There are three ways to log PIC time (for those not CFIs or ATPs).

1. Sole occupant of the aircraft.
2. Sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which you are rated.
3. Pilot in command of a multipilot operation (under the regs/type certificate)

#1 doesn't require you to be rated in the aircraft. Your instructor can sign you off to go
solo on any pilot certificate (student or otherwise).

#2 doesn't require currency or endorsement requirements to be met provided there is
someone else aboard who is actually PIC.

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
m...
|
| "C J Campbell" wrote in message
| A strict reading of these two regulations would indicate that a private
| pilot holding a certificated for single engine land airplanes may log
PIC
| for the time he is acting as safety pilot in a complex or high
performance
| airplane whether he is signed off for those airplanes or not.
|
| No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that
requires
| only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not
legally
| be PIC.

Where does it say that in the regulations?

"C J Campbell" wrote in message ...

| No a strict reading doesn't say that. He may be a safety pilot, as that
requires
| only ratings. He can not log safety pilot time as PIC time as he can not
legally
| be PIC.

Where does it say that in the regulations?

61.51 (e)(1)(iii) ... is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft requring more
than one pilot...

When acting as pilot in command, you must meet the other requirements
of being pilot in command:

61.31(e)(1) ...no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane unless...

There is a difference between (1) serving as pilot in command, (2) acting as
pilot in command, and (3) logging pilot in command. The last two apply to
part 91 operations. Logging pic and acting as pic are not related.

Simon
AWP-FSDO-SDL