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#11
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"Frank Ch. Eigler" wrote in message ... ... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the various categorized flight times. As far as logging time in the OP's case, dual would come closest, but then the person giving instruction and the circumstances would have to qualify. - FChE Agreed, I have logged every flight "experience" but unless I qualified as PIC(which includes safety pilot of simulated instrument), or the other pilot was a CFI. The "time" was not loggable to "Total Time". Example: First ride in a taildragger, me a student, pilot a PPL, I was allowed to manipulate controls in cruise. Log entry-Date,Place,Aircraft,First ride in taildragger,0-Landings,0-Time This is what I was instructed and how I understand it. Marty |
#12
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... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the
various categorized flight times. Still just speculation on your part. There is no reason to think that the listed categorized kinds of time are exhaustive. The person the OP mentioned got valuable experience, but which may not fall into any official category. He can certainly log it as "Total Time" because Total Time can mean whatever he wants it to mean. Much of the confusion over this subject would go away if people would use the proper terms. |
#13
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#14
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On 19 Dec 2004 06:53:26 -0800, "houstondan"
wrote: i suppose the real issue would be how you intend to use that tabulation of "total hours". near as i can tell, it wouldn't qualify for anything as far as ratings or insurance and trying to use it as such could be really bad. dan The intent was for adherance to insurance requirements for employment, and while it seems there isn't a cut and dry answer, your "could be real bad" comment about sums up how to proceed. Thanks. z |
#15
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"Greg Esres" wrote in message
... ... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the various categorized flight times. Still just speculation on your part. There is no reason to think that the listed categorized kinds of time are exhaustive. The person the OP mentioned got valuable experience, but which may not fall into any official category. He can certainly log it as "Total Time" because Total Time can mean whatever he wants it to mean. Much of the confusion over this subject would go away if people would use the proper terms. Yes, especially the FAA. But as long as the FAA's aeronautical-experience regulations speak of "total time as a pilot" (presumably meaning the same thing as the defined term "pilot time"), it seems reasonable for pilots abbreviate that phrase to "total time" (in a context that clearly refers to time as a pilot). --Gary |
#16
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zatatime wrote: My specific example is a person who flew literally hundreds of hours before getting a license (no solo privs either). He performed all the duties of the flight including take-off, cross country navigation, landing, communications, maneuvers, etc... He was always accompanied by someone who was acting as pilot in command, but whom never touched the stick. Is it legal for him to log total time for these flights? My logbook has several columns for time. He could log the time under the "aircraft category" column, under "class" (if applicable), under "conditions of flight" (if applicable), under "cross country" (if applicable), and under "total duration of flight." He cannot log it under "pilot in command", since he was not rated. He cannot log it as "dual received" unless the other person in the plane was a CFI. That what he *can* do. IMO, it's going to make his logbook look really weird, which invites hostile scrutiny by the FAA if they ever get a look at it. It probably would also confuse insurance companies if he ever tries to insure an aircraft an aircraft. That's two big disadvantages right there. What does logging the time buy him? Nothing that I can see. None of this time counts in furtherance of any certificates. George Patterson The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise. |
#17
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On Sun, 19 Dec 2004 20:51:26 GMT, "G.R. Patterson III"
wrote: What does logging the time buy him? Nothing that I can see. None of this time counts in furtherance of any certificates. He doesn't "need" anymore certificates right now. What it would buy him is meeting a total time requirement for a job, and meeting insurance requirements for insurance on planes his family own part or all of. Right now he's got about 750-800 hours with 500 in multi-engine airplanes. Most jobs want 1000 total, as do his insurance companies. (I saw the other thread on getting insurance...I don't want to go there for right now, and am only relating what he and his father have told me about their insurance woes.) So when he flies the Aztec, Stomp, or Great Lakes he isn't insured. He did finally get put on the policy for the SNJ. His father has always kept a log book and noted when the son was with him doing the flying. Turns out the kid had about 400 hours before he ever turned 16 (and that doesn't include time he was in the airplane with someone else doing the flying)! Being able to capture some of that time would put him over the 1000 hour mark, and send him on his career path more quickly. When I made the post, I was thinking along the same lines to what you and Gregg have posted. What I'm not sure about are the possible repercussions if something were to happen. z |
#18
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zatatime wrote: When I made the post, I was thinking along the same lines to what you and Gregg have posted. What I'm not sure about are the possible repercussions if something were to happen. Well, I've attended some discussions of this sort of thing at FAA seminars. Inspector Ryan of the Allentown FAA made the statement at one that "It's your logbook; you can put anything in it you want to." He continued on to state that the FAA only cares if you try to use a false entry to obtain certification. That was about 8 years ago, but nothing's changed AFAIK. The regulations describe what you can and cannot log as PIC and dual instruction. There doesn't appear to be any regulation that states that a non-rated pilot can't log the time in other categories. If there is no prohibition against doing something, it is, by definition, legal to do it. George Patterson The desire for safety stands against every great and noble enterprise. |
#19
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I don't think he can log PIC time. That is also true of student pilots
receiving dual. They don't get PIC time unless they are alone in the aircraft except on their checkride. At least that's what it was when I was getting my private. But my instrument rating was all PIC because I was rated in the airplane and the sole manipulator of the controls. Interestingly, while getting twin-time instruction, it is also not PIC time until the rating even though I have private SEL rating. "zatatime" wrote in message ... Does anyone know what the rules are around logging total time? My specific example is a person who flew literally hundreds of hours before getting a license (no solo privs either). He performed all the duties of the flight including take-off, cross country navigation, landing, communications, maneuvers, etc... He was always accompanied by someone who was acting as pilot in command, but whom never touched the stick. Is it legal for him to log total time for these flights? Is there a way to log total time without logging either PIC, SIC, or Dual Received/Given? Thanks for any responses to this. z |
#20
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Greg Esres wrote: ... except for the rules of arithmetic, a total being the sum of the various categorized flight times. Still just speculation on your part. There is no reason to think that the listed categorized kinds of time are exhaustive. Fine. He can invent a "was a helpful passenger" column/category in a log book, and add it there, and thence accumulate into a "total". The person the OP mentioned got valuable experience, but which may not fall into any official category. [...] That's true. Nevertheless, if the person is proposing to use this valuable but unofficial time in furtherance of ratings or insurance experience credits, he had better discuss this with the respective agency, lest he be suspected of fraud. - FChE |
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