If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
|
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
(I decided to move this to a separate thread since its a bigger issue
than engine TBO.) Matt...I read the Avweb article. The author correctly notes that whether its a car or plane, you should always insist on seeing or discussing the problems with the mechanic so there are no surprises later. However, in a car, you can simply tell the mechanic "Thanks but no thanks" on some recommended repairs and move on. But for a plane, once the item has been flagged as an airworthiness issue, you have little choice. You can talk to the A&P all you want and until you are blue in the face (as I did in the case below on every single item on the estimate). But if he says "Sorry...in my view, these must be repaired", you have only two options...suck it up, or close up the plane, go thru the hassle I describe below, take it someplace else, and hope the new shop will be a little more lenient. In the case of our Warrior annual, I was NOT interested in cutting safety corners. But there were items (like a small dent in one of the exhaust risers--$300) that had been there for many years but Landmark decided to take a hard line on what was "airworthy" vs "suggested". The pilot has little say in this. As a result, our normal annual of ~ $1800 went up to $6000. (Obviously, we won't be using them next year!) --Jeff ------------------------- Jeff B wrote: While not directly related to the engine/TBO question, I ran into this exact problem on the recent annual for my 79 Warrior. We used a new FBO this year (Landmark) and they took a "lets make it new" approach on the initial inspection and estimate. The list of issues ran 3 pages long even though many had been there for many years and signed off by 2 other smaller FBOs in previous annuals. The cost estimate was 3x what we were used to!! THe point being that after I recovered from heart failure over the estimate, we considered having Landmark close it up and take it somewhere else. But we learned that once a shop flags something as unairworthy, its too late to "change your mind", ignore the inspection, and start over someplace else. You can go elsewhere, but an A&P must now sign off that the plane is safe to fly and ferry to another shop, a FSDO has to sign off on a ferry permit, and then the new A&P must either the fix the flagged items or note in the logbook why he/she didn't agree with the initial diagnosis. This process requires permits, signatures, more permits, more signatures. (In the end, we decided it was too hard and we let Landmark suck our wallets dry.) Matt Barrow wrote: http://www.avweb.com/news/savvyaviator/189710-1.html The Savvy Aviator #18: Avoid an Annual Calamity Pay particular attention to the part titeld, "Mismanagement Of The Annual" |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
You ABSOLUTELY do have an option...
First you order the mechanic to button up the plane and sign off on his performed work in the logbook and his list of discrepancies, and you pay the bill... **Remember, the Annual Inspection is only that - an inspection... It is not graven in stone that the first mechanic is the only one who can correct the discrepancies...** Then you move your plane out of his shop and secure it... Then you call the FSDO for your area and ask for a ferry permit for this plane because of a dispute with the A&I... You read him/her the list of discrepancies, such as the small dent in the exhaust that has been there for a decade, etc. and ask for the ferry permit to move the plane to another shop for a fresh inspection... The odds are 99 & 44/100% that you will get the ferry permit... The odds are also good that the FSDO inspector will stop at the new mechanics shop to have a look so be sure your VOR checks are logged and your ARROW is straight and shiny... Once the new mechanic and the inspector agree on what is an actual discrepancy you get the work done, and your plane is now airworthy again.. denny |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
On Apr 14, 11:49 am, "Denny" wrote:
You ABSOLUTELY do have an option... First you order the mechanic to button up the plane and sign off on his performed work in the logbook and his list of discrepancies, and you pay the bill... **Remember, the Annual Inspection is only that - an inspection... It is not graven in stone that the first mechanic is the only one who can correct the discrepancies...** Then you move your plane out of his shop and secure it... Then you call the FSDO for your area and ask for a ferry permit for this plane because of a dispute with the A&I... You read him/her the list of discrepancies, such as the small dent in the exhaust that has been there for a decade, etc. and ask for the ferry permit to move the plane to another shop for a fresh inspection... The odds are 99 & 44/100% that you will get the ferry permit... The odds are also good that the FSDO inspector will stop at the new mechanics shop to have a look so be sure your VOR checks are logged and your ARROW is straight and shiny... Once the new mechanic and the inspector agree on what is an actual discrepancy you get the work done, and your plane is now airworthy again.. denny You didn't read my original carefully. I didn't say you had NO options, but rather your options are limited. You can either A) "suck it up" and let the shop do the work, OR B) go thru the process that we both described with ferry permits, etc. But if you choose B, in addition to the hassles of permits, signatures, reviews, etc., you have to ask yourself whether taking it someplace else will really make enough of a difference to make all those time-consuming hassles worthwhile? In the end, will you save $50 or 50%?? No way to know what the 2nd shop will insist on fixing or let pass. In my case, since my partners and I have normal day jobs with limited time to spend calling and driving somewhere to sign forms, we decided to go with option A...especially since the 2nd shop was booked solid for 6 weeks which would have kept us grounded waiting. My major point is that once items are flagged as unairworthy during an inspection, the comparison between cars and planes no longer applies and the hassle-factor goes up considerably. A flagged item cannot be ignored by the owner (like a recommendation from your car shop to replace a fan belt.) A logbook entry is required...either after repair by the original shop, or by an explanation from a 2nd shop why its not necessary. --Jeff |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
In article . com,
"JB" wrote: You didn't read my original carefully. I didn't say you had NO options, but rather your options are limited. You can either A) "suck it up" and let the shop do the work, OR B) go thru the process that we both described with ferry permits, etc. But if you choose B, in addition to the hassles of permits, signatures, reviews, etc., you have to ask yourself whether taking it someplace else will really make enough of a difference to make all those time-consuming hassles worthwhile? In the end, will you save $50 or 50%?? No way to know what the 2nd shop will insist on fixing or let pass. In my case, since my partners and I have normal day jobs with limited time to spend calling and driving somewhere to sign forms, we decided to go with option A...especially since the 2nd shop was booked solid for 6 weeks which would have kept us grounded waiting. Even if it would cost me more to go the ferry route, I wouldn't let the first shop rip me off. -- Bob Noel (goodness, please trim replies!!!) |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
On Apr 14, 1:26 pm, Bob Noel
wrote: In article . com, "JB" wrote: You didn't read my original carefully. I didn't say you had NO options, but rather your options are limited. You can either A) "suck it up" and let the shop do the work, OR B) go thru the process that we both described with ferry permits, etc. But if you choose B, in addition to the hassles of permits, signatures, reviews, etc., you have to ask yourself whether taking it someplace else will really make enough of a difference to make all those time-consuming hassles worthwhile? In the end, will you save $50 or 50%?? No way to know what the 2nd shop will insist on fixing or let pass. In my case, since my partners and I have normal day jobs with limited time to spend calling and driving somewhere to sign forms, we decided to go with option A...especially since the 2nd shop was booked solid for 6 weeks which would have kept us grounded waiting. Even if it would cost me more to go the ferry route, I wouldn't let the first shop rip me off. -- Bob Noel (goodness, please trim replies!!!) I agree what Denny says with the following exception- After you get a discrepancy list from the IA, and the IA signs the log book,the annual inspection is complete. No other inspection is required. At this point, the list of discrepancies needs to be attended to and signed off by any licensed A&P, once this is done, the aircraft is airworthy. It's up to the A&P how the repairs are to be made. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
I agree what Denny says with the following exception- After you get a discrepancy list from the IA, and the IA signs the log book,the annual inspection is complete. No other inspection is required. Ya know, this is an issue that has been debated... In theory you are correct per the regs... Most, if not all, IA's will argue that you are wrong, though... A bit of self serving in their part... denny |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:41:07 -0700, JB wrote:
My major point is that once items are flagged as unairworthy during an inspection, the comparison between cars and planes no longer applies and the hassle-factor goes up considerably. This is only true if the previous annual has expired. It opens up an interesting policy decision. Do you do your annuals "late" (ie. at the last possible minute, perhaps letting the work flow into the next month), thereby getting maximum value? Or do you leave yourself a buffer by doing the annual early in the month? - Andrew |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
On Apr 17, 12:13 pm, Andrew Gideon wrote:
On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 09:41:07 -0700, JB wrote: My major point is that once items are flagged as unairworthy during an inspection, the comparison between cars and planes no longer applies and the hassle-factor goes up considerably. This is only true if the previous annual has expired. It opens up an interesting policy decision. Do you do your annuals "late" (ie. at the last possible minute, perhaps letting the work flow into the next month), thereby getting maximum value? Or do you leave yourself a buffer by doing the annual early in the month? - Andrew In my case, we do it late in the cycle. But I'm not sure it matters. Won't an item(s) flagged as unairworthy during an inspection make the plane unairworthy regardless of the time?? I can't imagine that you could legally fly around just because your annual hasn't expired yet by the calendar. --Jeff |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 10:20:57 -0700, JB wrote:
But I'm not sure it matters. Won't an item(s) flagged as unairworthy during an inspection make the plane unairworthy regardless of the time?? Not merely by an IA's claim. I've never seen a discrepancy list. I'm told, though, that the wording will be something like "the inspection has been performed and that the aircraft had the follow discrepancies...". I can't imagine that you could legally fly around just because your annual hasn't expired yet by the calendar. This is actually a very interesting point. If there is a real issue on the discrepancy list, then I would opine that this wouldn't be legal because the pilot would know about the item. But if there's no real issue? BTW, this is all part 91 flying. I've no idea what additional issues arise out of 121 etc. - Andrew |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Options After Items Flagged as Unairworthy (was TBO and Airworthiness)
I can't imagine that you
could legally fly around just because your annual hasn't expired yet by the calendar. --Jeff That technicality doesn;t really matter because if they want you, they will get you for flying an airplane with known defects regardless of the status of the logs... denny |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
TBO and airworthiness | Jim Stewart | Owning | 26 | April 17th 07 05:05 PM |
Midwest Unairworthy Propeller Source? | Jay Honeck | Home Built | 10 | September 8th 05 03:29 PM |
Midwest Unairworthy Propeller Source? | Jay Honeck | Owning | 10 | September 8th 05 03:29 PM |
Midwest Unairworthy Propeller Source? | Jay Honeck | Piloting | 10 | September 8th 05 03:29 PM |
KLN94 "Flagged" When Database Out of Date | AMW | Instrument Flight Rules | 12 | September 14th 04 05:20 PM |