Instrument Check Ride - What navigation equipment can I use ?

I have started another thread to get a consensus of opinion about what
navigation equipment I will be allowed to use on my instrument check ride.

Recently I installed in the Archer a complete new Garmin left stack
including the GNS530.
I kept one of the old KX170B's [repositioned] and its glideslope indicator
so that I have dual ILS & VOR systems.
I also kept the Flybuddy Loran which I intend to replace with a slide in GPS
replacement to act as another backup.
The ADF went to a new home via eBay.
The aircraft has a Century IIB AP which is now interfaced with a new GDC31
roll steering unit to the 530.
So just like magic, the bird now flies any programmed route that is active
in the 530 including handling horizontal guidance for the missed approach.

Now after flying the aircraft for quite a few IFR training flight plans I am
reasonably sharp in using the new equipment in IMC and flying with it "in
the system".
I am pretty ok using the Century IIB to fly coupled approaches with the
KX170B and coupled VOR radial intercepts.
So with or without the roll steering equipment I am reasonably comfortable
using any or all of the equipment available.

Now comes my question, what will I be allowed to use on my instrument
checkride ?
I am assuming that the examiner will want the 530 switched off at some stage
for at least one ILS approach, while using the KX170B + GS Indicator ?

Thanks
Roy

Roy,

Now comes my question, what will I be allowed to use on my instrument
checkride ?

The FAA has recently changed its attitude on this. The key point is that you
will have to be able to use everything that's there. So you need to be
proficient in autopilot and Garmin use. OTOH, the examiner can declare broken
whichever equipment he wants to. That depends a lot on the mindset of the
examiner, and your CFII should be familiar with the quirks of the examiners in
the area.

I am assuming that the examiner will want the 530 switched off at some stage
for at least one ILS approach, while using the KX170B + GS Indicator ?

I guess so, too. OTOH, mine (in Germany) wouldn't let me program the 430 for
the approach, but he would still allow me to have the simple map display with
ground speed and track (yeah!).

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Do they still require single VOR holds be demonstrated? I'd expect the
autopilot to be declared INOP as soon as the prop turns; it isn't
required equipment for IFR operations on a Dakota. If the instructor
spent more than an hour on showing how the autopilot coupling system
works, then something is wrong. Students aren't encouraged to use
coupled autopilots during training are they?



-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Borchert ]
Posted At: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:29 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Instrument Check Ride - What navigation equipment can I
use
?
Subject: Instrument Check Ride - What navigation equipment can I
use ?

Roy,

Now comes my question, what will I be allowed to use on my
instrument
checkride ?

The FAA has recently changed its attitude on this. The key point is
that
you
will have to be able to use everything that's there. So you need to be
proficient in autopilot and Garmin use. OTOH, the examiner can declare
broken
whichever equipment he wants to. That depends a lot on the mindset of
the
examiner, and your CFII should be familiar with the quirks of the
examiners in
the area.

I am assuming that the examiner will want the 530 switched off at
some
stage
for at least one ILS approach, while using the KX170B + GS Indicator
?

I guess so, too. OTOH, mine (in Germany) wouldn't let me program the
430
for
the approach, but he would still allow me to have the simple map
display
with
ground speed and track (yeah!).

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jim,

If the instructor
spent more than an hour on showing how the autopilot coupling system
works, then something is wrong.

I think you got that wrong. What could be better than to learn about
autopilot use from an instructor. Would you prefer to have the student
figure it out on his own? Why?

Students aren't encouraged to use
coupled autopilots during training are they?

As I said: The FAA's attitude on that has changed, and rightly so,
IMHO. They adapt to the fact that more and more GA planes have
autopilots, and that many accidents could be prevented if only the
pilots knew how to use them beyond "hold the plane straight and level"
mode. The Kennedy accident comes to mind as a perfect example.

So, to answer your question: Yes, in a current training environment,
students are encouraged to ALSO use coupled autopilots during training,
if the aircraft is so equipped. I said "also", as in: in addition to
hand flying. The FAA requires you to be able to use all eqipment in the
aircraft and the PTS calls for a focus on autopilot usage if the plane
is so equipped.

IFR flying is not a macho contest about who can fly in the soup with
the fewest instruments...

FWIW, here in Germany, single pilot IFR requires an operational
two-axis autopilot. One of the few country-specific regulations here
that make sense to me.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Tom, et al,
I'm not advocating against autopilots at all, but I am
suggesting that the student should not learn to rely on an autopilot. A
check ride should test the student's ability to handle emergency
situations. If the student can handle the emergency by demonstrating
proper understanding, technique, and execution of the procedures you can
rest assured he or she can handle the tasks when everything is spinning
properly.

I would be surprised if it took more than an hour in the
aircraft to demonstrate the proper procedures for using an autopilot,
hence my statement about it taking more than an hour. An autopilot is
one of those things where a lot of classroom work and mockup work can be
done to really reduce the time spent in the aircraft.

I have never been in favor of a student making extensive use of
autopilots during training because it relieves them of a lot of the
multitasking work. Practicing workload management when things aren't all
there to help the student is one of the benefits of having an instructor
in the other seat. Learning instrument flying by spending more than just
a little time coupled to the box is not the best use of the student's
time or the instructor's skills.

I don't agree with Germany's regulations on single-pilot IFR
operations, but those decisions are often made for political
expediencies. Single-pilot IFR is not an unmanageable task if the pilot
understands his or her limitations, the limitations of the equipment
being used, and has a reasonable set of personal minimums. Taking these
decisions away from the pilot by mandating use of a 2-axis autopilot may
be popular, but should not be necessary.

Demonstrating that a student can fly a typically one-hour check
ride by hand is not a macho task. There will typically not be more than
one or two holds, three or four approaches, and some partial panel
unusual attitudes. Although a typical instrument flight won't involve
all of these elements in a one-hour period, this scenario is still very
real world.


-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Borchert ]
Posted At: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 8:26 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Instrument Check Ride - What navigation equipment can I
use
?
Subject: Instrument Check Ride - What navigation equipment can I
use ?

Jim,

If the instructor
spent more than an hour on showing how the autopilot coupling system
works, then something is wrong.

I think you got that wrong. What could be better than to learn about
autopilot use from an instructor. Would you prefer to have the student
figure it out on his own? Why?

Students aren't encouraged to use
coupled autopilots during training are they?

As I said: The FAA's attitude on that has changed, and rightly so,
IMHO. They adapt to the fact that more and more GA planes have
autopilots, and that many accidents could be prevented if only the
pilots knew how to use them beyond "hold the plane straight and level"
mode. The Kennedy accident comes to mind as a perfect example.

So, to answer your question: Yes, in a current training environment,
students are encouraged to ALSO use coupled autopilots during
training,
if the aircraft is so equipped. I said "also", as in: in addition to
hand flying. The FAA requires you to be able to use all eqipment in
the
aircraft and the PTS calls for a focus on autopilot usage if the plane
is so equipped.

IFR flying is not a macho contest about who can fly in the soup with
the fewest instruments...

FWIW, here in Germany, single pilot IFR requires an operational
two-axis autopilot. One of the few country-specific regulations here
that make sense to me.


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Jim Carter writes:

Demonstrating that a student can fly a typically one-hour check
ride by hand is not a macho task. There will typically not be more than
one or two holds, three or four approaches, and some partial panel
unusual attitudes. Although a typical instrument flight won't involve
all of these elements in a one-hour period, this scenario is still very
real world.

One could argue that any IFR flight without an operational autopilot
is an emergency, in which case the only type of IFR flight that one
would need to verify without autopilot would be landing at the nearest
airport. Although it apparently is not done this way in most
jurisdictions now, I can see the logic in doing so. Essentially it
would amount to little more than increasing the number of functional
instruments required for IFR flight.

I don't personally agree with legislating this, but basing testing on
this assumption isn't necessarily unreasonable.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

Jim,

A
check ride should test the student's ability to handle emergency
situations.


Using an autopilot might be a good way to handle an emergency.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

In article 000401c713bf$cfcd0670$8202a8c0@omnibook6100,
"Jim Carter" wrote:

Do they still require single VOR holds be demonstrated? I'd expect the
autopilot to be declared INOP as soon as the prop turns; it isn't
required equipment for IFR operations on a Dakota.

It may not be required equipment, but if you turn up for the checkride
with one installed and not INOP, I'll bet the DE will ask to see you use
it. My own checkride (a few years ago) was done in a spiffy new 172SP
with IFR GPS and coupled autopilot, and you can be damn sure the DE made
me do a coupled approach with it (GPS approach, actually) and show that
I knew all the failure modes and how to cope with them as well as how to
use the various AP modes. Since my instructor had spent some time
showing me this and encouraging me to fly with it coupled (as well as
uncoupled, of course), I was well-prepared.

If the instructor
spent more than an hour on showing how the autopilot coupling system
works, then something is wrong. Students aren't encouraged to use
coupled autopilots during training are they?

I'd hope so... Nowadays I fly mostly AP-installed aircraft and am damn
thankful my instructor stressed its use.

Hamish

Autopilots do not take a degree in astrophysics to operate. That being
said, I also made the point that an hour or so of instruction "in the
aircraft" should be sufficient.

I believe the DE will expect the candidate to demonstrate knowledge of
all of the systems on board. I also think the student should not spend a
great deal of time during training "in the aircraft" coupled to an
autopilot. The purpose of autopilots is to reduce cockpit workload.
Students should experience their highest level of cockpit workload
during training, and should not be using the autopilot for much at all
once they have demonstrated they understand its operation.

It is a whole lot easier to learn how to use an autopilot than to learn
how to manage the cockpit workload after it breaks in the soup. That's
my only point.


-----Original Message-----
From: Hamish Reid ]
Posted At: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:33 AM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Instrument Check Ride - What navigation equipment can I
use
?
Subject: Instrument Check Ride - What navigation equipment can I
use ?

In article 000401c713bf$cfcd0670$8202a8c0@omnibook6100,
"Jim Carter" wrote:

Do they still require single VOR holds be demonstrated? I'd expect
the
autopilot to be declared INOP as soon as the prop turns; it isn't
required equipment for IFR operations on a Dakota.

It may not be required equipment, but if you turn up for the checkride
with one installed and not INOP, I'll bet the DE will ask to see you
use
it. My own checkride (a few years ago) was done in a spiffy new 172SP
with IFR GPS and coupled autopilot, and you can be damn sure the DE
made
me do a coupled approach with it (GPS approach, actually) and show
that
I knew all the failure modes and how to cope with them as well as how
to
use the various AP modes. Since my instructor had spent some time
showing me this and encouraging me to fly with it coupled (as well as
uncoupled, of course), I was well-prepared.

If the instructor
spent more than an hour on showing how the autopilot coupling system
works, then something is wrong. Students aren't encouraged to use
coupled autopilots during training are they?

I'd hope so... Nowadays I fly mostly AP-installed aircraft and am damn
thankful my instructor stressed its use.

Hamish

Jim Carter wrote:
Autopilots do not take a degree in astrophysics to operate. That being
said, I also made the point that an hour or so of instruction "in the
aircraft" should be sufficient.

Time flies in the air. I don't think I would claim proficiency
in my autopilot (and it's interface to the NAV radios) until I'd
flown a couple of climbs, descents approaches and holds with the thing.
Time flies in the air. I think it was more than an hour. It is
however a tiny fraction of the IFR training time. And this was
despite the fact that I had the thing for a year before trying to
do IFR procedures with it and I still got stumped the first time
I tried to do an approach with it after my checkride (this I think
was the GPS not the autopilot but the result was the same... push
the big red button and hand fly it).

I still don't trust the thing. In VFR conditions I'll let it
motor me around the purple line, but in IFR I'm still hovering
over the big red button and scanning just as carefully as I would
if I was hand flying it.