New Aviation Terminology

The Tenerife crash invovled the KLM flight being in position in hold. The
first officer called in saying they were "ready for their ATC clearance."
What he got back was an IFR clearance"
"Cleared to Papa Beacon ...



What were they doing in position for takeoff without an IFR clearance in
hand???

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1069786900.839440@sj-nntpcache-3...

Actually there are some changes as a result of Tenerife. For
example in the UK the word "cleared" is used only in "cleared
for takeoff". Other uses (e.g. for taxi) use some other word,
"permission" iirc.


What is used for IFR clearances?

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...

What were they doing in position for takeoff without an IFR clearance in
hand???


It's a rather small airport and several rather large aircraft had diverted
there for weather. They were preparing to depart, awaiting their clearance.

"Paul Sengupta" wrote in message
...

This may have been after they started rolling and the 1st officer tried
to question whether they had actually been cleared for take-off.

The big thing is that the words "take-off" can now not be used other
than "cleared for take-off". It may be the case that the Dutch captain
heard the words "cleared" and "take-off" and thought that was his cue
to go.


ATC never used the C-word. While PanAm was still taxiing on the runway KLM
was told, "OK. Standby for takeoff. I will call you." KLM then began
takeoff roll, ATC's next transmission was to PanAm:

ATC: "Roger. Pan Am 1736, report the runway clear."

Pan Am: "OK. Will report when we are clear."

ATC: "Thank you."

The KLM CVR recorded the copilot saying to the captain, "Did he not clear
the runway then?" "Oh yes" was the captain's reply as he continued his
takeoff.

"Teacherjh" wrote in message ...

The Tenerife crash invovled the KLM flight being in position in hold. The
first officer called in saying they were "ready for their ATC clearance."
What he got back was an IFR clearance"
"Cleared to Papa Beacon ...



What were they doing in position for takeoff without an IFR clearance in
hand???

Waiting.

I've never tried to fly IFR in Europe so I have no idea. Maybe
somebody else can answer...?

John

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

"Bob Gardner" wrote in message
news:8dPwb.304758$Tr4.962384@attbi_s03...
Ignore Tenerife for the moment. John Harper said that in Europe, the
word
"cleared" was no longer used except for takeoff clearances. In your
reply,
you said, in so many words, that nothing similar had been done in the
US. My
post was intended to point out that something has indeed been done in
the
US.

He was following up comments on Tenerife, and I asked "how do you get your
IFR clearances."
I was specifically asking how his would have hellped Tenerife (perhaps
there was
more to it than he was saying).,

Your comments are off the topic.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
hlink.net...

ATC never used the C-word. While PanAm was still taxiing on the runway KLM
was told, "OK. Standby for takeoff. I will call you." KLM then began
takeoff roll, ATC's next transmission was to PanAm:

KLM: KLM 4805 is now ready for takeoff, and we're waiting for our ATC clearance.
TWR: KLM 8705 you are CLEARED to the papa beacon climb to and maintain
flight level 290 right turn after take-off proceed with heading 040 until
intercepting the 305 radial from Las Palmas VOR.
KLM: Roger sir, we're cleared to the Papa Beacon flight level 90, right turn out
050 until intercepting the 305 and we're now at take-off.
TWR: OK. Stand by for take-off, I will call you.
PAN: We're still taxiing down the runway, Clipper 1736

They did use the C word in delivering the IFR clearance. The CVR out of the
KLM shows the captain saying (in Dutch) "we're going" between the OK and
the Stand By instruction.

In article ,
Ron Natalie wrote:
TWR: OK. Stand by for take-off, I will call you.
PAN: We're still taxiing down the runway, Clipper 1736

They did use the C word in delivering the IFR clearance. The CVR out of the
KLM shows the captain saying (in Dutch) "we're going" between the OK and
the Stand By instruction.

And the transmission from PAN was stepped on.

--
Ben Jackson

http://www.ben.com/

"Ron Natalie" wrote in message
. ..

KLM: KLM 4805 is now ready for takeoff, and we're waiting for our ATC
clearance.
TWR: KLM 8705 you are CLEARED to the papa beacon climb to and maintain
flight level 290 right turn after take-off proceed with heading
040 until
intercepting the 305 radial from Las Palmas VOR.
KLM: Roger sir, we're cleared to the Papa Beacon flight level 90, right
turn out
050 until intercepting the 305 and we're now at take-off.
TWR: OK. Stand by for take-off, I will call you.
PAN: We're still taxiing down the runway, Clipper 1736

They did use the C word in delivering the IFR clearance. The CVR out of
the
KLM shows the captain saying (in Dutch) "we're going" between the OK and
the Stand By instruction.


Yes, they used the C-word in delivering the IFR clearance. How would they
issue an IFR clearance without using it? But Paul Sengupta wrote, "It may
be the case that the Dutch captain heard the words "cleared" and "take-off"
and thought that was his cue to go." ATC said "OK. Stand by for take-off,
I will call you." No C-word.

They were preparing to depart, awaiting their clearance.

You don't await IFR clearance sitting on the runway. I don't care what kind of
airplane you are, or why you diverted. When waiting for an IFR clearance, you
stay off the runway.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)