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Va and negative g's & fun non-acrobatic maneuvers



 
 
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  #21  
Old December 2nd 03, 04:52 PM
Robert Moore
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(Rich Stowell) wrote

FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:

"For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
neccessary for normal flight."


I wonder where a 45 degree steep turn fall in this context?

In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially
by an ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver
results in both "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal
acceleration," and is "not necessary for normal flight."


Attitudes in the roller-coaster maneuver need not exceed the pitch
angles encountered in short-field takeoffs and landings.

Bob Moore
  #22  
Old December 2nd 03, 06:36 PM
Model Flyer
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"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070328589.456816@sj-nntpcache-3...
But the last line of your post says it all. For an ATP CFI who has
done it hundreds of times before, sure. For a fairly new pilot
who has never done it with a CFI beside him... not so good.
If he's worrying about negative AOA stalls then he's clearly
thinking about more than a 0.1G push-over.

What do you do about getting the dust out of everywhere
afterwards? Or do you do it often enough in the same plane
that the dust doesn't accumulate (as happens with acro planes)?


Hear about the Rats leaving a sinking ship, but the dust leaving an
aircraft doing aeros, sounds a hand way to clean out the insides.:-)
--
---
Cheers,
Jonathan Lowe.
/
don't bother me with insignificiant nonsence such as spelling,
I don't care if it spelt properly
/
Sometimes I fly and sometimes I just dream about it.
:-)


John


"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 7...
(Dan Thomas) wrote

It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the

pencil
comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't.

The
only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.


The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff

with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All

of
you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
doesn't require areobatic training!

Bob Moore
ATP CFI





  #23  
Old December 2nd 03, 08:50 PM
G.R. Patterson III
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Rich Stowell wrote:

In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially by an
ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver results in both
"an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal acceleration," and is "not
necessary for normal flight."

What exactly constitutes an "aerobatic maneuver" is left open for
interpretation, and in the end depends on who's looking...


It just depends on what you consider to be "normal flight".

George Patterson
Some people think they hear a call to the priesthood when what they really
hear is a tiny voice whispering "It's indoor work with no heavy lifting".
  #24  
Old December 3rd 03, 12:51 AM
Rich Stowell
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Robert Moore wrote in message .7...
(Rich Stowell) wrote

FAR 91.303, Aerobatic Flight, states in pertinent part:

"For the purposes of this section, aerobatic flight means an
intentional maneuver involving an abrupt change in an aircraft's
attitude, an abnormal attitude, or an abnormal acceleration, not
neccessary for normal flight."


I wonder where a 45 degree steep turn fall in this context?



It depends who's watching, sort of like "careless or reckless
operation." For example, a couple has lived under the crosswind
approach to a small airport for the last 70 years (and not without
animosity towards the airport for that long). During that time, the
couple has never witnessed an airplane do anything other than smooth,
shallow banked turns to enter the pattern. One day, in comes a pilot
fast and low who crisply cranks the airplane into a 45 (heck, why not
even 60) degree bank. One could argue that given the precedent set
over the previous 70 years, that type of maneuver was "not necessary
for normal flight" over the couple's house at that airport. I'm sure
the couple could find some lawyer somewhere to make that case. The
definition of aerobatic flight is abstract enough that it could be
used against a pilot if someone is looking for a reason--any
reason--to bust the pilot. Of course, lots of other FARs can be
interpreted against the pilot as well.


In the context of the Cessna 172, it could be argued (especially
by an ornery FAA-type) that the "float the pencil" maneuver
results in both "an abnormal attitude" and an "abnormal
acceleration," and is "not necessary for normal flight."


Attitudes in the roller-coaster maneuver need not exceed the pitch
angles encountered in short-field takeoffs and landings.



True for some more skilled in performing the maneuver than others.
That still doesn't get around the "abnormal accleration" or "not
necessary for normal flight" caveats. The point really was to
encourage the original poster not to experiment with unfamiliar
maneuvers on his own, but to take 0.5 hours of dual for safety's sake.

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com
  #25  
Old December 3rd 03, 04:58 AM
darryl
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"Anyone" wrote in message ...
Get acro instruction in a Pitts, Decathlon, etc. Doing what you want in a
172, while maybe possible, is dangerous and quite honestly, a little sad.
It's like trying to race a Geo Metro. I've got nothing against the 172,
it's just not well suited for what you want. The FBO I rent from rents a
Decathlon for $10/hr more than their SP's. I'm sure you can find one for
about what you pay for the 172.

BTW - your comment "stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick"...
a 172SP doesn't have a stick, it has a wheel. Sticks are for acro's, a 172
isn't an acro.




"Koopas Ly" wrote in message
om...
Me again,

Va seems to be only intended to protect against excessive positive
load factors. What about negative g's?

Can I find a Va for negative design load factors (-1.52 g) for the
C172SP anywhere?

Reason I am asking is that I want to try the "floating pencil" trick
next time I fly but I don't want to shove the stick fully forward for
fear of breaking something. I am not looking to induce negative g's,
only zero g's and zero lift. Any pointers on entry speed and power
settings? Is it easier to perform if you induce a gradual +1 g steep
climb similar to a departure stall maneuver, then upon hearing the
stall horn, give it good nudge forward on the stick? I've heard that
your airspeed may indicate well below stall, but again, your stall
speed does approach zero as your load factor goes to zero.

Likewise, would you prefer to pull 2 positive g's in a pull-up
maneuver or a, say, 60 deg. bank? Frankly, I am not too familiar with
the former so I might do something undesirable. Aside from my stall
speed going up to something like 68 kts. clean (Va ~ 100 kts), you'd
see your airspeed quickly dwindling while pulling up. I think it'd be
fruitless to add in power since heck, you're not maintaining altitude
and besides, you probably don't have any excess power anyway to do
that. Neither am I familiar with the mechanics of loops so it'd be
wiser to leave that alone. Perhaps the 60 deg. bank is more
reasonable to have some fun. Would you try to hold altitude with
backpressure and power or just leave the plane to dive and speed up in
the spiral, with a recovery before Vne? I think the maneuver would be
more innocuous with power-off a-la-emergency-descent style. Again,
I've never done a 60 deg. bank...so I should probably leave that alone
too until I try it with a passenger...oops..i mean CFI.

Seriously, if someone has something to suggest that's fun and safe,
within normal operating range and category, please suggest. It's a
buddy's bday soon and he wants to go up. Again, I am not looking for
doing anything aerobatic.

Alright, I can see the flames and derision coming from the mainland

May you have a peaceful week with no stress,
Alex


Aside from the 172 not being stressed for fooling around like this it
is a pain in the backside. Not quite like a truck, more like going
to a sports car race in a SUV. A good plane to get aero in would be
a 150 aerobat (did they make a 152 aerobat?) I'm assuming you've
been flying mostly Cessnas. The feel and controls will be familiar
and you will have to finesses it to get clean manuvers.
You can avoid the trouble of "taming a taildragger" and still learn
some good stuff and have some fun.
You can go for the Serious Iron later if you get addicted.
Darryl
46 Taylorcraft
  #26  
Old December 3rd 03, 05:41 AM
Paul Sengupta
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People flying inverted usually manage to find dirt they never knew about.

Paul

"Dan Thomas" wrote in message
om...
EDR wrote in message

...
And the dust and dirt from the floor will get in your eyes.


We keep our airplanes clean.



  #27  
Old December 3rd 03, 05:45 AM
Paul Sengupta
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Does anyone have a link to the "floating dog" video? Or was it just
a still photograph? I seem to remember seeing a video where some
guys had a dog on the back seat and a camera on the dash. When
they "unloaded" the plane, the dog floated up from behind the front
seats then went back down again as they re-established 1G and/or
pulled out. The dog seemed to like doing it.

Paul

"Dan Thomas" wrote in message
MAKE SURE EVERYTHING IS TIED DOWN IN THE CABIN. Floating cargo
can depart through a window or it can come down hard on the pullout
and damage something.



  #28  
Old December 3rd 03, 05:49 AM
Paul Sengupta
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I think the bit where the original poster said:

"I am not looking to induce negative g's, only zero g's and zero lift."

sort of answers that. He's just being careful, just in case.

Paul

"John Harper" wrote in message
news:1070328589.456816@sj-nntpcache-3...
If he's worrying about negative AOA stalls then he's clearly
thinking about more than a 0.1G push-over.



  #29  
Old December 3rd 03, 05:58 AM
Paul Sengupta
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"Normal" flight. I once gave an instructor a headache. I was
getting checked out in a 130hp 150 aerobat. We did a short/
obstructed field take-off, climbing at around 60mph, seeing only
sky through the windscreen. He pulled the throttle on me for an
EFATO. I managed to not lose any airspeed (that I could see)
and get it going 60mph downhill...and giving the instructor's head
a knock on the ceiling as I did it. He remarked that it wasn't quite
so critical to get the nose down so quickly.

Paul

"Robert Moore" wrote in message
. 7...
I "float" stuff with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172.



  #30  
Old December 3rd 03, 06:47 PM
Michael
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aolMe too!/aol

Robert Moore wrote
(Dan Thomas) wrote
It can be done from cruise speed. Pull up into a shallow climb,
then start pushing forward, increasing pressure until the pencil
comes off the panel. It'll feel like negative G's but isn't. The
only stress on the airplane occurs when you pull out of the
shallow dive created by the maneuver. You don't have to get the
nose way up or down at all, and it doesn't require abrupt, or
anywhere near full, control inputs. Kids love it.


The ONLY sensible post in this whole thread! I "float" stuff with
all of my new students, makes them feel like an astronaut. And
that's in a Cessna-172. Who cares if the engine sputters? All of
you sissies go back to MSFS. Its not an aerobatic maneuver and
doesn't require areobatic training!

Bob Moore
ATP CFI

 




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