How do carrier-based planes find the ship after a mission ?

We had a Tacan

Or not. A certain Adm Jerry Tuttle had an aversion to radiating from his
ships. EMCON night recoveries north of the arctic circle. Pitching deck,
70 knots of wind over the deck, and the most memorable night trap in my life
(yes, you CAN experience the 3 ultimate physical pleasures simultaneously).

The E-2 would set up the recovery (which typically included a misdirection
penatration followed by a 25-50 mile vector at 1200 feet). Pulse
single-scan could really help on the run in. Figure out the BRC/FB on
flyover, turn downwind and dirty up, time 30 seconds while descending to 600
feet. Level turn to FB, fiddle with lineup and descend when the ball looked
centered. Cut lights (hopefully just once) and fly the ball. Not bad when
the weather was reasonable. Not fun when it was not.

R / John

"John Carrier" wrote...

Or not. A certain Adm Jerry Tuttle had an aversion to radiating from his
ships. EMCON night recoveries north of the arctic circle. Pitching deck, 70
knots of wind over the deck, and the most memorable night trap in my life
(yes, you CAN experience the 3 ultimate physical pleasures simultaneously).

Hmmm... Tuttle must have been friends with Chuck McGrail when McGrail was CO of
Midway in the early 80s... EMCON recoveries (day and night) and "stealth
transits" were routine for a while!

I've heard of the "7 basic pleasures of life," and can only guess which of the 3
you refer to as "ultimate"... :-)


The E-2 would set up the recovery (which typically included a misdirection
penatration followed by a 25-50 mile vector at 1200 feet). Pulse single-scan
could really help on the run in.

....but not available in the KA-6D, even for "cheating"...

The block 89A version of the ICAP II Prowler has EGI (Embedded GPS/INS) so
you can actually realign airborne overhead mom when it is required. Of
course, marking your position overhead mom is still something we don't teach
our ECMOs to do. Of course, we don't teach our ECMOs much about the boat in
the RAG. They only get the very basics of CV ops and if they are lucky
enough, we would drag them along to ride in the backseat for CQ. Student
ECMOs don't know how dangerous CQ is and especially in the backseat of a
student pilot's jet.


"Allen Epps" wrote in message
...
In article , nafod40
wrote:

Mike Kanze wrote:
Of course it helps mightily if you have a reasonably accurate fix from
the
ship before you launch - unlike the pre-launch (and pre-GPS) 40
nm-in-error
"fix" that the CORAL MARU gave a VA-95 crew during its 1975 cruise.
(Sea
story previously shared in this NG.) If you don't know from where you
started, DR by itself isn't going to get you home. Worse if you THINK
you
know from where you started - like the VA-95 crew, but are wrong and
don't
know it.

We were doing blue water ops, and launched on an alert. I was a nugget
null-P in the E-2. The CAPC makes a big deal about grabbing an accurate
chart that's up to date before we going flying. We get airborne and he
opens the chart up...and it's all blue. Top to bottom, left to right. He
looks at it for a second, closes it back up and sticks it in the navbag
and says, "I guess we're there!"

The INS on the ICAP II Prowler was actually pretty good, aligned well,
rarely lost it's platform or ran away too badly (except when really
needed of course). But when getting a CV alignment you often found the
ship had given you the wrong position. The problem here is that you
need an accurate INS position to the real geography to steer the
jammers and give valid steering data to the HARM. So....... launch,
manually degrade the INS and get an accurate update off of something,
apply manual mag var and winds to keep the system as tight as possible,
then when it's time to go home to an EMCOM mom, upgrade to INS mode
again and even though it's not accurate to the real world, point 0 is
still reasonably close to where you left and then apply the recovery
PIM and hopefully the auto dawg machine was where you thought it was.
And when it's not, fess up and call the Hummer or look for the nastiest
thunderstorm around and the boats under it.......

Pugs

In article 6lwgd.47$fw2.46@trndny01, Laura O''Leary
wrote:

The block 89A version of the ICAP II Prowler has EGI (Embedded GPS/INS) so
you can actually realign airborne overhead mom when it is required. Of
course, marking your position overhead mom is still something we don't teach
our ECMOs to do. Of course, we don't teach our ECMOs much about the boat in
the RAG. They only get the very basics of CV ops and if they are lucky
enough, we would drag them along to ride in the backseat for CQ. Student
ECMOs don't know how dangerous CQ is and especially in the backseat of a
student pilot's jet.


I flew the 89 for maybe 200 hours in VAQ-209 before I retired and while
it had it's strengths I never did really care for the CRT ADI after we
had to shoot a no gyro PAR at night in the goo into Roosy Roads because
of the DU overheat shutting down both displays. I could also never find
a really good illum level from the right seat that satisfied the pilot
and me. The 89A INS/GPS combo might make it all worthwhile though.

You're certainly right about being clueless in the backseat in the RAG
CQ. My first trip to the boat was with a Marine 1st lt to Indy. ended
up DQ'ing and I never had a clue how bad he was. I was just having a
great time finally feeling like I was finally seeing the big grey
boat. 500+ traps later I feel like I know a bit too much!

Pugs

In the early 60's we used a CHART PLOTTING BOARD Mark 6A, it was about 14"
by 14". The ships course and speed and the flight plan could be plotted at
the same time. It was a hand job but it worked, most of the time. If it
didn't you started a square search at the point you were suppose to meet.
Also it opened up and was a good place for porn pictures!





On 28/10/04 5:46 PM, in article , "Frank Minich"
wrote:


"Al Dykes" wrote in message
...


How do they do it, today ?


In the late 70's, you just looked for the biggest cloud. The ship was
usually under it.

Guy,

Great share. Thanks.

--
Mike Kanze

"Do witches run spell-checkers?"

- Old word processing joke


"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Mike Kanze wrote:

Guy,

Thanks for reminding the more forgetful of us about Point Option. This
was
what I had in mind when I answered Al Dyke with the "DR" portion of my
response. In fact, that's what it is - a DR problem with a specific
name.

See my reply to W.D. Allen.

With GPS/INS, everyone knows where they are to within a few meters,
assuming everything's working.

Of course it helps mightily if you have a reasonably accurate fix from
the
ship before you launch - unlike the pre-launch (and pre-GPS) 40
nm-in-error
"fix" that the CORAL MARU gave a VA-95 crew during its 1975 cruise. (Sea
story previously shared in this NG.) If you don't know from where you
started, DR by itself isn't going to get you home.

Sure isn't.

Worse if you THINK you
know from where you started - like the VA-95 crew, but are wrong and
don't
know it.

FWIW, here's an account of 1980s tech, by a Sea Harrier on a single-ship
night
CAP mission from HMS Invincible during the Falklands War. SHARs didn't
have a
real INS at the time, they used a twin-gyro nav platform that was easier
to
align on board:

"As soon as I was turning and burning, I put the radar to 'Standby' to
warm up
and called 'On deck'.

"'Roger. Ship's head is 340; now, now, now! Your position is 55 deg. 05'
W and
51 deg. 12' S.' The communication link between Flyco and aircraft on deck
was
via a wire, not radio.

"The information passed was necessary for aligning the NAVHARS platform.
My HUD
had already showed me that the a/c was pointing 2 deg. to the left of the
ship's
centerline, and so on the third 'now' I entered 338 deg. into the system.
Geographical coordinates were also entered, and I was ready for launch . .
. .
[he flies an uneventful mission, actually the first night of the war while
the
Vulcan bombs Port Stanley airfield]

"Recovering to the ship was going to be a little different from usual, the
difference being that none of the ships would have any lights on at all --
including Invincible. The carrier would only switch on the dimmest deck
lighting when the Sea Jet [SHAR] was about 200 yards from touchdown.
Then, as
soon as the wheels touched the deck, it would be off with the lights and
back to
darken ship.

"I descended to low level and, using my NAVHARS, navigated through the
briefed
safety lane to where I expected Invincible's marshalling area to be.
Switching
my radar to transmit, I found what I thought was Invincible amongst the
many
contacts on my neat green radar display and called the Approach
Controller. '003
estimating 6 miles on the approach. 800 feet, gear down and locked, 2200
pounds.' I had stacks of fuel.

"Roger, 003, I have you at 5 1/2 miles. Ship's head 320. Wind over the
deck 18
knots."

And so on to recovery. And here's a night approach in poor weather a bit
later
in the war:

"By the time I began my final descent towards the Carrier Group I was back
amongst the clouds. They were massive and very turbulent. After I had
descended to low level and was running in to the expected position of the
ship
via the safety lane, I called, '004, on the way in. Estimating 280, 25
miles.
Over.'

"Tony was immediately on the air. 'Roger, 004, read you loud and clear.
I have
no contact on you, repeat no contact. Clutter from snow clouds too
intense.'
He was concerned. Good old Tony; there's a man you can really trust.
He'd do
anything to get his pilots down safely.

"'Roger. I'll conduct my own approach and call out my ranges to go.' I
was
feeling confident thanks to two important facts. Firstly, when Invincible
gave
a ship's estimated position for the recovery of aircraft, you could bet
your
pension on her being in that position when you returned from your flight,
especially in bad weather. So I was very sure in my mind that I could
find the
deck using my NAVHARS information. The second fact was that I had
practiced
self-homing to the deck on many occasions, and we had also carried out the
trials on the software for self-homing when ashore in the Trials Unit. It
was
no higher workload for the pilot than following instructions from the
ship's
precision approach controller.

On my radar screen, the Invincible 'position destination marker' that I
had
selected on my nav computer sat less than 2 miles from one of the ship
contacts
in view. I had already programmed the 'marker' with the ship's
pre-briefed
recovery course and speed and was happy to see it was holding good
formation on
the contact nearest to it. That had got to be Invincible -- I hadn't
enough
fuel left to make any mistakes. There was enough for one approach only.

"It was a simple matter to update the radar marker's position by fixing
the
radar onto the contact. The 'Self-Controlled Approach' programme in the
NAVHARS
computer software was provided so that pilots could safely carry out their
own
precision approach to a chosen destination. My chosen destination was the
ship,
and as I lined up 5 miles astern of what I thought was Invincible, I
selected
the precision approach mode on the HUD. I also locked the radar onto the
ship
to keep the 'destination' information as accurate as possible . . .

"'Five miles on the approach.' I called.

"'Roger, still no contact.' Tony must be sweating buckets down there. I
was at
800 feet and the world outside was black. Approaching 3 miles I prepared
to
commence descent. The radar was firmly locked on to the contact ahead.

"'Three miles.'

"'Still no contact.'

"Was I on the right ship? I began to wonder as I started down the slope.
My
jet was being tossed around a bit by turbulence from heavy clouds, which
would
certainly account for the clutter Tony had mentioned. There was no other
course
but to wait and see.

"'Have you now at 1 1/2 miles. On the glide slope.' Tony sounded
relieved. I
was relieved.

"Tony continued with his calls all the way to half a mile. He had passed
the
wind over the deck as 40 knots gusting 50. It felt like it in the
cockpit,
too. The buffeting increased as I got lower.

"'Half a mile.' My head-up information said the same. I delayed
selecting
hover-stop for a few seconds because of the strong head-wind, then nozzles
down,
power going on. At a quarter of a mile I called 'Lights'. And there,
behind
the radar cross in the HUD, appeared the ship's island. As usual the
cross was
just about on Flyco. Radar off and concentrate on controlling the jet.
As I
was moving sideways over the deck from alongside the wind backed through
30
deg. I ruddered the nose into it before settling onto the deck with an
uncharacteristic thud.

"'That's my excitement over for the night,' I thought. It was 0400 hours,
and a
long day lay ahead."

For anyone who's interested, all the above is from "Sea Harrier over the
Falklands: A Maverick at War," by Commander (ret.) Nigel 'Sharkey' Ward,
DSC,
AFC, RN.

Guy

nafod40,

"I guess we're there!"

In the case of the Green Lizard (VA-95) crew, "there" was practice
penetrations of Taiwanese airspace to exercise Nationalist air defense
capabilities. Due to the aforementioned ship's posit error, the Lizard crew
found themselves headed toward a Mainland China coast-in point. Fortunately
they 180ed and bustered for Mother before being "welcomed" by the PLAAF.

--
Mike Kanze

"Do witches run spell-checkers?"

- Old word processing joke


"nafod40" wrote in message
...
Mike Kanze wrote:
Of course it helps mightily if you have a reasonably accurate fix from
the ship before you launch - unlike the pre-launch (and pre-GPS) 40
nm-in-error "fix" that the CORAL MARU gave a VA-95 crew during its 1975
cruise. (Sea story previously shared in this NG.) If you don't know
from where you started, DR by itself isn't going to get you home. Worse
if you THINK you know from where you started - like the VA-95 crew, but
are wrong and don't know it.

We were doing blue water ops, and launched on an alert. I was a nugget
null-P in the E-2. The CAPC makes a big deal about grabbing an accurate
chart that's up to date before we going flying. We get airborne and he
opens the chart up...and it's all blue. Top to bottom, left to right. He
looks at it for a second, closes it back up and sticks it in the navbag
and says, "I guess we're there!"

John,

north of the arctic circle.

A place where the wet compass is worse than its usual useless.

--
Mike Kanze

"Do witches run spell-checkers?"

- Old word processing joke


"John Carrier" wrote in message
...
We had a Tacan

Or not. A certain Adm Jerry Tuttle had an aversion to radiating from his
ships. EMCON night recoveries north of the arctic circle. Pitching deck,
70 knots of wind over the deck, and the most memorable night trap in my
life (yes, you CAN experience the 3 ultimate physical pleasures
simultaneously).

The E-2 would set up the recovery (which typically included a misdirection
penatration followed by a 25-50 mile vector at 1200 feet). Pulse
single-scan could really help on the run in. Figure out the BRC/FB on
flyover, turn downwind and dirty up, time 30 seconds while descending to
600 feet. Level turn to FB, fiddle with lineup and descend when the ball
looked centered. Cut lights (hopefully just once) and fly the ball. Not
bad when the weather was reasonable. Not fun when it was not.

R / John

John,

...but not available in the KA-6D, even for "cheating"...

Amen.

One tactic would be to find a navigationally-competent friend up there and
promise some gas for a lead home. (Note I said "promise." g)

--
Mike Kanze

436 Greenbrier Road
Half Moon Bay, California 94019-2259
USA

650-726-7890

"Do witches run spell-checkers?"

- Old word processing joke


"John R Weiss" wrote in message
news:sIugd.271445$wV.72828@attbi_s54...
"John Carrier" wrote...

Or not. A certain Adm Jerry Tuttle had an aversion to radiating from his
ships. EMCON night recoveries north of the arctic circle. Pitching
deck, 70
knots of wind over the deck, and the most memorable night trap in my life
(yes, you CAN experience the 3 ultimate physical pleasures
simultaneously).

Hmmm... Tuttle must have been friends with Chuck McGrail when McGrail was
CO of
Midway in the early 80s... EMCON recoveries (day and night) and "stealth
transits" were routine for a while!

I've heard of the "7 basic pleasures of life," and can only guess which of
the 3
you refer to as "ultimate"... :-)


The E-2 would set up the recovery (which typically included a
misdirection
penatration followed by a 25-50 mile vector at 1200 feet). Pulse
single-scan
could really help on the run in.

...but not available in the KA-6D, even for "cheating"...

"Mike Kanze" wrote...

...but not available in the KA-6D, even for "cheating"...

Amen.

One tactic would be to find a navigationally-competent friend up there and
promise some gas for a lead home. (Note I said "promise." g)

Not usually a problem... Those Phantom phlyers could sniff a 0.5 give of JP5
from 100 miles away!