Possibly the stupidest idea ever...

One of the guys who founded our flying club 40+ years ago is still a
member. He's got a lot of experience, but quite frankly some things I've
heard about him scare the hell out of me. But nothing quite as bad as
this: He's proposing that the club does a "Missing Man Formation" over
Bill Law's memorial service next weekend.

Let me get this straight, you're going to get four guys who've never flown
formation with each other before, put them in four dissimilar aircraft
(try and find a speed where both the Lance and the Warrior are happy), and
fly a maneuver in close formation with only a week to practice?

What a great way to remember Bill Law - by having a fatal 4 plane mid-air
collision over his memorial service! Oh well, at least the club would get
some new planes out of it. Too bad we'd never get insurance again, and the
club officers would be put in jail for not stopping this lunatic. Oh wait,
I'm a club officer!

I wonder if we've got time to pass a bylaw expelling anybody who tries
close formation work in club planes?

--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"You are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else." -
- Delenn, Babylon 5

Paul Tomblin wrote:

One of the guys who founded our flying club 40+ years ago is still a
member. He's got a lot of experience, but quite frankly some things I've
heard about him scare the hell out of me. But nothing quite as bad as
this: He's proposing that the club does a "Missing Man Formation" over
Bill Law's memorial service next weekend.

Let me get this straight, you're going to get four guys who've never flown
formation with each other before, put them in four dissimilar aircraft
(try and find a speed where both the Lance and the Warrior are happy), and
fly a maneuver in close formation with only a week to practice?

I don't know the aeroplanes' characteristics, so I don't know how
easily he could choose a suitable speed.

However, if he *can* find a suitable speed, he and three others could
fly a *big* "Missing Man". After all, there's nothing that says they
have to keep it as tight as, say, the Red Arrows would.

I'm not saying it is a *good* idea, but the formation *needn't* be
particularly close - especially if it is flown fairly high, which
would also allow greater vertical separation between the aeroplanes.

That said, there is another very important consideration: what would
the family think? If *they* don't like it then it's a non-starter,
however high and wide it is flown.

In article ,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote:

One of the guys who founded our flying club 40+ years ago is still a
member. He's got a lot of experience, but quite frankly some things I've
heard about him scare the hell out of me. But nothing quite as bad as
this: He's proposing that the club does a "Missing Man Formation" over
Bill Law's memorial service next weekend.

Let me get this straight, you're going to get four guys who've never flown
formation with each other before, put them in four dissimilar aircraft
(try and find a speed where both the Lance and the Warrior are happy), and
fly a maneuver in close formation with only a week to practice?

What a great way to remember Bill Law - by having a fatal 4 plane mid-air
collision over his memorial service! Oh well, at least the club would get
some new planes out of it. Too bad we'd never get insurance again, and the
club officers would be put in jail for not stopping this lunatic. Oh wait,
I'm a club officer!

I wonder if we've got time to pass a bylaw expelling anybody who tries
close formation work in club planes?

If they have never flow formation and have not had formation training,
then, yes, it IS a stupid idea!

If, however, they have had military or FAST formation training, then
they should brief, go out and practice together, then debrief.

To prohibit formation training and flight in club airplanes outright is
also a stupid idea. If, however, you prohibit untrained formation
flight, then it is a great idea.

Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell this guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


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I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a year when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero, and.. oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell this guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


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Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a year
when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero, and..
oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell this
guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...

And for most clubs, if the insurance company decides to cancel their
coverage, there is no option other than to go out of business. There just
aren't a lot of companies out there who are willing to insure a flying club
these days, and thus the club needs to keep its insurance company happy.
It's just one of the realities of running a flying club. I didn't say I lke
it, but I do have to work with the realities of the situation.


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In a previous article, "Geoffrey Barnes" said:
"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...

And for most clubs, if the insurance company decides to cancel their
coverage, there is no option other than to go out of business. There just
aren't a lot of companies out there who are willing to insure a flying club
these days, and thus the club needs to keep its insurance company happy.
It's just one of the realities of running a flying club. I didn't say I lke
it, but I do have to work with the realities of the situation.

Especially since Avemco is already on our backs about our Lance - at first
they said they wouldn't insure it (or any other complex 6 seater) at all,
then they said we have to list the 8 pilots who've flown it more than 15
hours this year on the insurance policy and nobody else can fly it. The
other 42 members of the club aren't going to be happy about that.


--
Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Died. Woke up in Hell. Punched in PIN, logged on. Just another day.
-- David Gerard

Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not prohibited by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if
they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a year
when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero, and..
oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell this
guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004

Sorry, but you are just totally wrong!

Every insurance policy I have ever read has a section called something like
"Limitations And Exclusions". It's a list of activities that if engaged in,
the insurance policy is null and void; they will not pay. And in the GA
world, it will frequently include such things as aerobatics and formation
flying.

And I don't know who you think it is that decides whether an insurance
company pays a claim or not, but it is, in fact, the insurance company. If
you think they wrongly refused to pay you can sue them and take them to
court, but you will probably lose.

And what do you think happens if you are judged at fault in an accident and
your insurance doesn't pay? In most jurisdictions the injured party can take
your house, your car(s), your business (if you have one), and they can place
a judgment on your wages. How long do you think it would take you to pay off
five or ten million dollars?

And just because something is legal doesn't mean your insuror has to pay if
you found liable in an accident.

And given the judgment you've shown in this post, "what YOU deem safe"
scares the **** out of me.



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
Let's see... Pilots are doing something legal, something not prohibited by
their insurance, and the insurance company has the authority to decide
whether or not to pay if there is a claim? Nope. The insurance pays.
Usually, they pay even if the pilot(s) were doing something illegal or
stupid.

Don't let fear of insurance companies prohibit you from doing things that
are legal and that you deem safe.

KB


"Bill Denton" wrote in message
...
Maybe so, but if something goes wrong, it's the insurance company that
decides if they're going to pay for it...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
I hate when people say "check with the insurance company". Hell, if
they
had their way, you'd never leave the ground except that one day a
year
when
the visibility was perfect and the winds were forecast to be zero,
and..
oh,
by the way, they'd prefer you have a CFII in the right seat.

Beyond the FAR's and club rules, the PILOT(s) decide when and where
formation flight is appropriate.

KB


"Geoffrey Barnes" wrote in message
ink.net...
Check with your insurance company. They almost certainly won't
cover
anything even remotely close to formation flight. Then just tell
this
guy
that the insurance company said "no". That should solve your
problem,
without any need to pass a by-law.


---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.742 / Virus Database: 495 - Release Date: 8/19/2004