Low cost ADS-B Options

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 8:28:17 AM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
This is somewhat misleading. PowerFlarm doesn't actually let you "see" mode C and S transponders. It warns you if a transponder equipped aircraft is in your vicinity. It tells you the altitude and an approximate range, but you have absolutely no idea if the aircraft is in front of you, behind, you etc.

If the PowerFlarm guys had bothered to implement TIS-B, it would be be able to tell you exactly where the transponder equipped aircraft is. Similarly, you get absolutely no visibility for UAT equipped aircraft or drones.

This may be an acceptable product for Europe, but definitely a half baked solution for the US market.

Again, Mike, please describe for us a practical ADS-B OUT/IN setup that you can buy today, and install it in a glider, that provides the same situational awareness that a PowerFLARM does.

Crickets....as expected.

My PowerFLARM, for the last 3 years, has provided me with ALL the nearby Mode-S ES ADS-B traffic, as well as approximate distance and relative altitude (critical, that) of ALL transponder equipped aircraft. Still does. And it displays that data on it's own BF display as well as on my Oudie and SN10.. Oh and it shows other FLARM equipped gliders!

ADS-B is GREAT for powered aircraft that need it. It could have been great for gliders too, if it had cost $500 for a VFR-only portable system. Instead, it's become a fancy required toy for motor heads, and gliders will continue to fly around blind (in the US at least).

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 7:42:34 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 8:28:17 AM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
This is somewhat misleading. PowerFlarm doesn't actually let you "see" mode C and S transponders. It warns you if a transponder equipped aircraft is in your vicinity. It tells you the altitude and an approximate range, but you have absolutely no idea if the aircraft is in front of you, behind, you etc.

If the PowerFlarm guys had bothered to implement TIS-B, it would be be able to tell you exactly where the transponder equipped aircraft is. Similarly, you get absolutely no visibility for UAT equipped aircraft or drones.

This may be an acceptable product for Europe, but definitely a half baked solution for the US market.

Again, Mike, please describe for us a practical ADS-B OUT/IN setup that you can buy today, and install it in a glider, that provides the same situational awareness that a PowerFLARM does.

Crickets....as expected.

My PowerFLARM, for the last 3 years, has provided me with ALL the nearby Mode-S ES ADS-B traffic, as well as approximate distance and relative altitude (critical, that) of ALL transponder equipped aircraft. Still does. And it displays that data on it's own BF display as well as on my Oudie and SN10. Oh and it shows other FLARM equipped gliders!

ADS-B is GREAT for powered aircraft that need it. It could have been great for gliders too, if it had cost $500 for a VFR-only portable system. Instead, it's become a fancy required toy for motor heads, and gliders will continue to fly around blind (in the US at least).

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Kirk, your PowerFlarm does not even come close to traffic awareness ADS-B out/in installation provides. Before I installed ADS-B Out/In, I was in situations, e.g. in a thermal, when I got a warning from PowerFlarm about another aircraft a mile away at my altitude. How do you find that aircraft? You only see part of the sky and not for too long, plus it might be coming from the sunny side. One 360 turn takes 20 seconds and if you miss the other aircraft it may take considerable amount of time before you see that part of the sky again. Flying with PowerFlarm in areas with considerable power traffic is simply stressful.

TIS-B service gives me total situation awareness. I know exactly where the other transponder equipped traffic is as well as his direction of travel and speed.

I still have PowerFlarm to see other gliders, but saying that PowerFlarm is better than ADS-B out/in is a stretch.

You might not be able to install it in a certified glider but you can sure install it now in any experimental glider.

Also why would you want ADS-B system to cost $500 when PowerFlarm costs around $1,500? You are not being fair.

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 8:22:00 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Kirk, your PowerFlarm does not even come close to traffic awareness ADS-B out/in installation provides. Before I installed ADS-B Out/In, I was in situations, e.g. in a thermal, when I got a warning from PowerFlarm about another aircraft a mile away at my altitude. How do you find that aircraft? You only see part of the sky and not for too long, plus it might be coming from the sunny side. One 360 turn takes 20 seconds and if you miss the other aircraft it may take considerable amount of time before you see that part of the sky again. Flying with PowerFlarm in areas with considerable power traffic is simply stressful.

TIS-B service gives me total situation awareness. I know exactly where the other transponder equipped traffic is as well as his direction of travel and speed.

I still have PowerFlarm to see other gliders, but saying that PowerFlarm is better than ADS-B out/in is a stretch.

You might not be able to install it in a certified glider but you can sure install it now in any experimental glider.

Also why would you want ADS-B system to cost $500 when PowerFlarm costs around $1,500? You are not being fair.

Andrej, I completely understand the limitations of PF vs ADS-B - but something that is available is better that something that isn't. What is your setup? How much? Is it likely that other glider owners will equip?

There is no technological reason why a VFR only ADS-B system should cost more than $500, IT THE INTENT WAS TO PROVIDE UNIVERSAL TRAFFIC AWARENESS. But ADS-B is about replacing SSR radars - not freebie traffic info for the small guys.

Hey, it's great that you have a working ADS-B system in you glider. In my club, we have 2 transponders, 2 PFs, and nothing else - out of around 20 gliders on the field. So ADS-B is a TOTAL FAIL in our environment.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 10:50:26 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, December 8, 2016 at 8:22:00 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Kirk, your PowerFlarm does not even come close to traffic awareness ADS-B out/in installation provides. Before I installed ADS-B Out/In, I was in situations, e.g. in a thermal, when I got a warning from PowerFlarm about another aircraft a mile away at my altitude. How do you find that aircraft? You only see part of the sky and not for too long, plus it might be coming from the sunny side. One 360 turn takes 20 seconds and if you miss the other aircraft it may take considerable amount of time before you see that part of the sky again. Flying with PowerFlarm in areas with considerable power traffic is simply stressful.

TIS-B service gives me total situation awareness. I know exactly where the other transponder equipped traffic is as well as his direction of travel and speed.

I still have PowerFlarm to see other gliders, but saying that PowerFlarm is better than ADS-B out/in is a stretch.

You might not be able to install it in a certified glider but you can sure install it now in any experimental glider.

Also why would you want ADS-B system to cost $500 when PowerFlarm costs around $1,500? You are not being fair.

Andrej, I completely understand the limitations of PF vs ADS-B - but something that is available is better that something that isn't. What is your setup? How much? Is it likely that other glider owners will equip?

There is no technological reason why a VFR only ADS-B system should cost more than $500, IT THE INTENT WAS TO PROVIDE UNIVERSAL TRAFFIC AWARENESS. But ADS-B is about replacing SSR radars - not freebie traffic info for the small guys.

Hey, it's great that you have a working ADS-B system in you glider. In my club, we have 2 transponders, 2 PFs, and nothing else - out of around 20 gliders on the field. So ADS-B is a TOTAL FAIL in our environment.

Cheers,

Kirk
66

Kirk, you are flying an experimental glider so you can install ADS-B out now. You can install a reasonably priced system today. I started with a very expensive position sensor, but moved to Garmin 20A that works very well in a glider, the cost $845 plus antenna. This position sensor works with Trig 22 transponder. If I had a choice between a transponder and PowerFlarm I would always pick a transponder. Anyway, the cost is not huge. My ADS-B in is a dual band Stratus 2s paired to ForeFlight.

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 3:41:58 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Kirk, you are flying an experimental glider so you can install ADS-B out now. You can install a reasonably priced system today. I started with a very expensive position sensor, but moved to Garmin 20A that works very well in a glider, the cost $845 plus antenna. This position sensor works with Trig 22 transponder. If I had a choice between a transponder and PowerFlarm I would always pick a transponder. Anyway, the cost is not huge. My ADS-B in is a dual band Stratus 2s paired to ForeFlight.

Andrej, I have to disagree with you on priorities. Given the choice between a transponder and PF, I chose PF. Meets my current needs better. If I was still flying out west, I would probably find a way to squeeze a Trig into my panel.

What do you fly and how do you display your ADS-B in? In my LS6 I really don't have room for another display - and having a ipad mini strapped to my leg is less than ideal.

And again, cost wise, you are talking TT22 ($2600?) plus GPS ($845) plus dual band Stratus ($900) plus iPad ($500) plus Foreflight ($100). Thats damn near $5000 BEFORE installation.

Thanks, I'll stick to my PF (which cost me about $1100) and do clearing turns when the PCAS function alerts me to a transponder threat co-altitude.

Kirk
66

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 6:20:27 PM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 3:41:58 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Kirk, you are flying an experimental glider so you can install ADS-B out now. You can install a reasonably priced system today. I started with a very expensive position sensor, but moved to Garmin 20A that works very well in a glider, the cost $845 plus antenna. This position sensor works with Trig 22 transponder. If I had a choice between a transponder and PowerFlarm I would always pick a transponder. Anyway, the cost is not huge. My ADS-B in is a dual band Stratus 2s paired to ForeFlight.

Andrej, I have to disagree with you on priorities. Given the choice between a transponder and PF, I chose PF. Meets my current needs better. If I was still flying out west, I would probably find a way to squeeze a Trig into my panel.

What do you fly and how do you display your ADS-B in? In my LS6 I really don't have room for another display - and having a ipad mini strapped to my leg is less than ideal.

And again, cost wise, you are talking TT22 ($2600?) plus GPS ($845) plus dual band Stratus ($900) plus iPad ($500) plus Foreflight ($100). Thats damn near $5000 BEFORE installation.

Thanks, I'll stick to my PF (which cost me about $1100) and do clearing turns when the PCAS function alerts me to a transponder threat co-altitude.

Kirk
66

ForeFlight runs on iPhone. I can't fit anything else in my panel either and I have a regular glider cockpit so no space for anything else.

Kirk,

I agree with most of what you say, however the PCAS (only) equipped
gliders in your area will not see you unless you have a transponder. I
also noted to my great satisfaction that, after installing a
transponder, I didn't see other aircraft up close any more, except for
that one guy who had a flarm only. Neither ATC nor I ever saw him
(except visually).

Dan

On 12/9/2016 4:20 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 3:41:58 PM UTC-6, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

Kirk, you are flying an experimental glider so you can install ADS-B out now. You can install a reasonably priced system today. I started with a very expensive position sensor, but moved to Garmin 20A that works very well in a glider, the cost $845 plus antenna. This position sensor works with Trig 22 transponder. If I had a choice between a transponder and PowerFlarm I would always pick a transponder. Anyway, the cost is not huge. My ADS-B in is a dual band Stratus 2s paired to ForeFlight.
Andrej, I have to disagree with you on priorities. Given the choice between a transponder and PF, I chose PF. Meets my current needs better. If I was still flying out west, I would probably find a way to squeeze a Trig into my panel.

What do you fly and how do you display your ADS-B in? In my LS6 I really don't have room for another display - and having a ipad mini strapped to my leg is less than ideal.

And again, cost wise, you are talking TT22 ($2600?) plus GPS ($845) plus dual band Stratus ($900) plus iPad ($500) plus Foreflight ($100). Thats damn near $5000 BEFORE installation.

Thanks, I'll stick to my PF (which cost me about $1100) and do clearing turns when the PCAS function alerts me to a transponder threat co-altitude.

Kirk
66

--
Dan, 5J

On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 5:35:10 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Kirk,

I agree with most of what you say, however the PCAS (only) equipped
gliders in your area will not see you unless you have a transponder. I
also noted to my great satisfaction that, after installing a
transponder, I didn't see other aircraft up close any more, except for
that one guy who had a flarm only. Neither ATC nor I ever saw him
(except visually).

Dan


Not a problem for me, since the ONLY other glider with a transponder also has PowerFLARM. We see each other fine!

Chances of the other gliders equipping with $5000 worth of ADS-B?

Not bloody likely! Well, one new glider might...

Chance of more PF installs, for just under $2K? Maybe...

Kirk
66

Not talking about the other glider at your club, nor am I talking about
ADS-B (despite the subject line). I'm talking about Joe Farmer bopping
along in his 172 and staring at his new-fangled GPS. Remember that guy
that got run over by an F-16 a few months back...? Now admittedly, you
wouldn't expect either of them to have FLARM (in this country), and
ATC's warnings didn't convey the urgency to the F-16 pilot.

I recall leading a visitor to Colorado on a flight southwest from Black
Forest back in the 90s when an A-7 blasted by on our left about the time
we were crossing Pike's Peak. I told him to watch out as they didn't
travel alone. The other one went by on our right. That wouldn't have
happened if either one of us had had a transponder but it /_would_/ have
happened nonetheless even had both of us been FLARM equipped.

Just sayin'

On 12/9/2016 8:02 PM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 5:35:10 PM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Kirk,

I agree with most of what you say, however the PCAS (only) equipped
gliders in your area will not see you unless you have a transponder. I
also noted to my great satisfaction that, after installing a
transponder, I didn't see other aircraft up close any more, except for
that one guy who had a flarm only. Neither ATC nor I ever saw him
(except visually).

Dan

Not a problem for me, since the ONLY other glider with a transponder also has PowerFLARM. We see each other fine!

Chances of the other gliders equipping with $5000 worth of ADS-B?

Not bloody likely! Well, one new glider might...

Chance of more PF installs, for just under $2K? Maybe...

Kirk
66

--
Dan, 5J

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 9:21:25 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Not talking about the other glider at your club, nor am I talking
about ADS-B (despite the subject line).Â* I'm talking about Joe
Farmer bopping along in his 172 and staring at his new-fangled GPS.Â*
Remember that guy that got run over by an F-16 a few months
back...?Â* Now admittedly, you wouldn't expect either of them to have
FLARM (in this country), and ATC's warnings didn't convey the
urgency to the F-16 pilot.


Actually - your scenario is EXACTLY why I prefer PF (remember, it's basically FLARM plus PCAS plus ADS-B from 1090ES) to a transponder, in MY low alt environment. Joe Farmer VFR may be squawking 1200 and talking to nobody, and doesn't have ADS-B. I'll get a warning on PF (PCAS). Or, Joe Doctor is VFR in his Cirrus with fancy ADS-B (mode S). I'll see him on my PF.

Now, if I replace my PF with a nice TT-21 (for about the same price): Joe Farmer doesn't see me, and Joe Doctor might get me via TIS-B. I don't get ANY warning about EITHER of them.

I like my way better - because in the air, I don't trust ANYONE!

And sure, it would be nice to have a cheap simple ADS-B out...BUT RIGHT NOW IT DOESN'T EXIST!!!! Thank you FAA for completely blowing off the small guy.

Kirk
66