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#11
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Why a triplane?
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#12
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Why a triplane?
On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 09:44:56 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Ron Wanttaja wrote in : One would have thought the Fokker D-6 (essentially a biplane DR-1) would have quickly superseded it, then. But I suppose Fokker finally getting the Mercedes engine let him jump to the bigger D-7. I don't think the D-6 was quite as good as the Albatros, but it was probably better than the Triplane in most ways. I think the Triplane had it;s limited success as a sort of accident. Fokker was fond of just grabbing bits they had developed and grafting them to other bits and then lengthening this, shortening that until he came up with something that worked. I heard once that Tony Fokker (a Dutch national) was somehow under suspicion by the German government, and the military had refused to give him access to the newest engines...so he designed the best fighters he could around an old one until the Germans changed their minds. I always loved the japanese kite face on Voss's airplane. Back in the '60s, DC Comics had a series about a German WWI pilot called "Enemy Ace," which was based on Richtofen. But "Hans Von Hammer's" all-red triplane featured Voss' kite face, as shown on the current image on my Fly Baby's baggage door: http://www.bowersflybaby.com/pix/enemy%20ace.jpg One last bit of DR1 lore is that Manfred von Richtofen had four of them. He also preferred the French Gnome engine over the Oberursel whaich was basically a copy of the Gnome anyway. His airplanes were all equipped with Gnomes captured form downed airplanes. Well, uhhh, maybe. I'd heard that Oberursel sometimes put Gnome data plates on its engines, with an additional plate explaining it was a "captured" engine. Even in the middle of a war, they were worried about licensing laws.... Thanks for the info about von Richtofen's four DR-1s. Back as a kid building models, I noticed that none of the sources seemed to agree as to whether his machine was all-red or otherwise. Having more than one airplane would explain it.... Ron Wanttaja |
#13
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Why a triplane?
Ron Wanttaja wrote in
: On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 09:44:56 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Ron Wanttaja wrote in : One would have thought the Fokker D-6 (essentially a biplane DR-1) would have quickly superseded it, then. But I suppose Fokker finally getting the Mercedes engine let him jump to the bigger D-7. I don't think the D-6 was quite as good as the Albatros, but it was probably better than the Triplane in most ways. I think the Triplane had it;s limited success as a sort of accident. Fokker was fond of just grabbing bits they had developed and grafting them to other bits and then lengthening this, shortening that until he came up with something that worked. I heard once that Tony Fokker (a Dutch national) was somehow under suspicion by the German government, and the military had refused to give him access to the newest engines...so he designed the best fighters he could around an old one until the Germans changed their minds. Never heard that but it is quite possible, He was pretty mercenary and probably would have godn to work for the other side if he was able to get across. I always loved the japanese kite face on Voss's airplane. Back in the '60s, DC Comics had a series about a German WWI pilot called "Enemy Ace," which was based on Richtofen. But "Hans Von Hammer's" all-red triplane featured Voss' kite face, as shown on the current image on my Fly Baby's baggage door: http://www.bowersflybaby.com/pix/enemy%20ace.jpg I remember it well. I think i got the whole run back then! about three years? One last bit of DR1 lore is that Manfred von Richtofen had four of them. He also preferred the French Gnome engine over the Oberursel whaich was basically a copy of the Gnome anyway. His airplanes were all equipped with Gnomes captured form downed airplanes. Well, uhhh, maybe. I'd heard that Oberursel sometimes put Gnome data plates on its engines, with an additional plate explaining it was a "captured" engine. Even in the middle of a war, they were worried about licensing laws.... He he. That was more likely to keep the pilots happy. Or do you have nfo that it was due to licencing law? Thanks for the info about von Richtofen's four DR-1s. Back as a kid building models, I noticed that none of the sources seemed to agree as to whether his machine was all-red or otherwise. Having more than one airplane would explain it.... Well, the dbate rages even over those four! One other thing about them is that all those models had one aileron larger than the other. One of the clearest pics of a tripe is oone that shows this clearly, but it appears that it was probablyl just due to a field repair using one off an older or newer machine. Someone did a drawing of it like that ( think it might have been William Wylam) and it was taken as fact that they were all like that and it was to compensate for torque. not so! Bertie |
#14
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Why a triplane?
Ricky wrote:
After reading more on this I have found that the German's were very concerned with the ability of their aircraft to get above the enemy as quickly as possible. An attack from above (especially from out of the sun), was found to be an extremely effective method of victory. The amount of lift generated from 3 wings was found to enhance climb performance quite significantly, thus affording German pilots the abilty to attack from above as was desired. I really doubt that was the reason as lift can easily be increased in a number of ways other than adding wings. I think structural strength was the primary reason for more wings in that era. Matt |
#15
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Why a triplane?
Matt Whiting wrote in newsj6pj.130$kD5.1392
@news1.epix.net: Ricky wrote: After reading more on this I have found that the German's were very concerned with the ability of their aircraft to get above the enemy as quickly as possible. An attack from above (especially from out of the sun), was found to be an extremely effective method of victory. The amount of lift generated from 3 wings was found to enhance climb performance quite significantly, thus affording German pilots the abilty to attack from above as was desired. I really doubt that was the reason as lift can easily be increased in a number of ways other than adding wings. I think structural strength was the primary reason for more wings in that era. Not in this case. One of the advantages of a bipe is the rigging allows an extremely rigid structure with light weight and an ability to have a wing that is unrestrained by the need to conceal a lot of structure ( thick spar). The DR1 was revolutionary in that all the panels were canitlever. There was no external bracing except the roll wires between the cabane. The interplane struts were redundant. Bertie |
#16
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Why a triplane?
On Feb 2, 4:38 pm, Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 09:44:56 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Ron Wanttaja wrote in : One would have thought the Fokker D-6 (essentially a biplane DR-1) would have quickly superseded it, then. But I suppose Fokker finally getting the Mercedes engine let him jump to the bigger D-7. I don't think the D-6 was quite as good as the Albatros, but it was probably better than the Triplane in most ways. I think the Triplane had it;s limited success as a sort of accident. Fokker was fond of just grabbing bits they had developed and grafting them to other bits and then lengthening this, shortening that until he came up with something that worked. I heard once that Tony Fokker (a Dutch national) was somehow under suspicion by the German government, and the military had refused to give him access to the newest engines...so he designed the best fighters he could around an old one until the Germans changed their minds. I always loved the japanese kite face on Voss's airplane. Back in the '60s, DC Comics had a series about a German WWI pilot called "Enemy Ace," which was based on Richtofen. But "Hans Von Hammer's" all-red triplane featured Voss' kite face, as shown on the current image on my Fly Baby's baggage door: http://www.bowersflybaby.com/pix/enemy%20ace.jpg One last bit of DR1 lore is that Manfred von Richtofen had four of them. He also preferred the French Gnome engine over the Oberursel whaich was basically a copy of the Gnome anyway. His airplanes were all equipped with Gnomes captured form downed airplanes. Well, uhhh, maybe. I'd heard that Oberursel sometimes put Gnome data plates on its engines, with an additional plate explaining it was a "captured" engine. Even in the middle of a war, they were worried about licensing laws.... Thanks for the info about von Richtofen's four DR-1s. Back as a kid building models, I noticed that none of the sources seemed to agree as to whether his machine was all-red or otherwise. Having more than one airplane would explain it.... Ron Wanttaja In one out of the way corner in the WWI section of the USAF Museum, there's a couple-inch square swatch of doped fabric in a frame, purported to be from the DR.I Richtofen died in. It's actually kind of a magenta color, but there's certain to be some fading involved... |
#17
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Why a triplane?
FledgeIII wrote in
: On Feb 2, 4:38 pm, Ron Wanttaja wrote: On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 09:44:56 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Ron Wanttaja wrote in : One would have thought the Fokker D-6 (essentially a biplane DR-1) would have quickly superseded it, then. But I suppose Fokker finally getting the Mercedes engine let him jump to the bigger D-7. I don't think the D-6 was quite as good as the Albatros, but it was probably better than the Triplane in most ways. I think the Triplane had it;s limited success as a sort of accident. Fokker was fond of just grabbing bits they had developed and grafting them to other bits and then lengthening this, shortening that until he came up with something that worked. I heard once that Tony Fokker (a Dutch national) was somehow under suspicion by the German government, and the military had refused to give him access to the newest engines...so he designed the best fighters he could around an old one until the Germans changed their minds. I always loved the japanese kite face on Voss's airplane. Back in the '60s, DC Comics had a series about a German WWI pilot called "Enemy Ace," which was based on Richtofen. But "Hans Von Hammer's" all-red triplane featured Voss' kite face, as shown on the current image on my Fly Baby's baggage door: http://www.bowersflybaby.com/pix/enemy%20ace.jpg One last bit of DR1 lore is that Manfred von Richtofen had four of them. He also preferred the French Gnome engine over the Oberursel whaich was basically a copy of the Gnome anyway. His airplanes were all equipped with Gnomes captured form downed airplanes. Well, uhhh, maybe. I'd heard that Oberursel sometimes put Gnome data plates on its engines, with an additional plate explaining it was a "captured" engine. Even in the middle of a war, they were worried about licensing laws.... Thanks for the info about von Richtofen's four DR-1s. Back as a kid building models, I noticed that none of the sources seemed to agree as to whether his machine was all-red or otherwise. Having more than one airplane would explain it.... Ron Wanttaja In one out of the way corner in the WWI section of the USAF Museum, there's a couple-inch square swatch of doped fabric in a frame, purported to be from the DR.I Richtofen died in. It's actually kind of a magenta color, but there's certain to be some fading involved... Yeah, it was ripped to shreds by souvenier hunters. Some if it is in Canada in a museum there including the seat. One of his tripes was preserved and displayed in a museum in germany, but it was destroyed in a bombing raid during the war. Bertie |
#18
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Why a triplane?
On Feb 2, 7:41 pm, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
FledgeIII wrote : On Feb 2, 4:38 pm, Ron Wanttaja wrote: On Sat, 2 Feb 2008 09:44:56 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip wrote: Ron Wanttaja wrote in : One would have thought the Fokker D-6 (essentially a biplane DR-1) would have quickly superseded it, then. But I suppose Fokker finally getting the Mercedes engine let him jump to the bigger D-7. I don't think the D-6 was quite as good as the Albatros, but it was probably better than the Triplane in most ways. I think the Triplane had it;s limited success as a sort of accident. Fokker was fond of just grabbing bits they had developed and grafting them to other bits and then lengthening this, shortening that until he came up with something that worked. I heard once that Tony Fokker (a Dutch national) was somehow under suspicion by the German government, and the military had refused to give him access to the newest engines...so he designed the best fighters he could around an old one until the Germans changed their minds. I always loved the japanese kite face on Voss's airplane. Back in the '60s, DC Comics had a series about a German WWI pilot called "Enemy Ace," which was based on Richtofen. But "Hans Von Hammer's" all-red triplane featured Voss' kite face, as shown on the current image on my Fly Baby's baggage door: http://www.bowersflybaby.com/pix/enemy%20ace.jpg One last bit of DR1 lore is that Manfred von Richtofen had four of them. He also preferred the French Gnome engine over the Oberursel whaich was basically a copy of the Gnome anyway. His airplanes were all equipped with Gnomes captured form downed airplanes. Well, uhhh, maybe. I'd heard that Oberursel sometimes put Gnome data plates on its engines, with an additional plate explaining it was a "captured" engine. Even in the middle of a war, they were worried about licensing laws.... Thanks for the info about von Richtofen's four DR-1s. Back as a kid building models, I noticed that none of the sources seemed to agree as to whether his machine was all-red or otherwise. Having more than one airplane would explain it.... Ron Wanttaja In one out of the way corner in the WWI section of the USAF Museum, there's a couple-inch square swatch of doped fabric in a frame, purported to be from the DR.I Richtofen died in. It's actually kind of a magenta color, but there's certain to be some fading involved... Yeah, it was ripped to shreds by souvenier hunters. Some if it is in Canada in a museum there including the seat. One of his tripes was preserved and displayed in a museum in germany, but it was destroyed in a bombing raid during the war. Bertie I also seem to recall reading someplace or other that one of - if not primary - motivations with tripes was to decrease span without sacrificing wing area - shortening the moments to increase roll and yaw rates. Kind of squares with stories of how guys like Voss flew the thing - bat**** crazy; flat turns, snap rolls, you name it. Another thing I recall reading was that it offered some advantages in visibility - high aspect ratio (narrow chord)/low stagger wings, the middle wing aligned right on line of sight where it obscured the least lateral vision. Then again, I could be all wt on that... |
#19
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Why a triplane?
On Feb 2, 4:40*pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
Ricky wrote: After reading more on this I have found that the German's were very concerned with the ability of their aircraft to get above the enemy as quickly as possible. An attack from above (especially from out of the sun), was found to be an extremely effective method of victory. The amount of lift generated from 3 wings was found to enhance climb performance quite significantly, thus affording German pilots the abilty to attack from above as was desired. I really doubt that was the reason as lift can easily be increased in a number of ways other than adding wings. *I think structural strength was the primary reason for more wings in that era. Matt Well, hey, that's what I read from a guy who spent years of research on the Fokker Triplane and then built one himself from scratch. Maybe he's mistaken? I doubt it. Ricky |
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