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#1
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LSA instructor?
I'm just back from OSH late last night as well. Had a good time, got
totally sunburned and enjoyed the show. A couple of questions came up, and everyone I asked seemed to have a different opinion (which happens when you don't have the FAR/AIM books at hand out on the Flight line).... 1. I thought the LSA "mall" was a great idea at show center. My first plane was an Ercoupe, and even thought I've moved "up" to a 172, the LSA type airplanes are really pretty cool. What I've been trying to figure out is this new LSA instructor thing. Can one really just take the "fundamentals of instruction" (FOI) test and then the written for the LSA instructor (and then the practical)? Without getting a commercial and then insturment, like a traditional CFI? 2. I was oogling the new Czech "Mermaid" amphibian as well. My wife was keen on that idea. Now with this, is there going to be a seperate LSA-single engine seaplane rating (LSA-seaplane???)? If one already has PP-SEL, does one just add SES on to it and then be qualified to fly the thing? I'm already a relatively active pilot, but I truly hope this LSA thing really takes off and we start seeing these planes out at the FBO's! Ryan Madison, WI |
#2
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Ryan,
I hope the sport thing takes off as well. There are alot of naysayers that will do whatever they can to throw a monkey wrench into it all for everyone. Like most "new" things done by any government agency there are quirks that have to be worked out. One I am working on is the Catch 22 of the 87 knot endorsement. One rule says a sport pilot may train in single engine plane , even if it is not light sport category, but must solo and take a check ride in the light sport aircraft. The 87 knot endorsement requirement states a certificated sport pilot may train and get an endorsement in a plane that cruises over the 87 knots. Hmmm if you already have time training in a Cherokee as a student why can't you get the 87 knot endorsement? The training is the same...just one of those tricky little wording things that I would guess got messed up by someone along the way. As the FAA guy told me," Welcome to the FAR's" I sure wish I could have made it up to the big event at OSH but driving was out of the question for me. I would have loved seeing the sport planes. Fill us in if you would!? Patrick student SPL aircraft structural mech wrote in message ups.com... I'm just back from OSH late last night as well. Had a good time, got totally sunburned and enjoyed the show. A couple of questions came up, and everyone I asked seemed to have a different opinion (which happens when you don't have the FAR/AIM books at hand out on the Flight line).... 1. I thought the LSA "mall" was a great idea at show center. My first plane was an Ercoupe, and even thought I've moved "up" to a 172, the LSA type airplanes are really pretty cool. What I've been trying to figure out is this new LSA instructor thing. Can one really just take the "fundamentals of instruction" (FOI) test and then the written for the LSA instructor (and then the practical)? Without getting a commercial and then insturment, like a traditional CFI? 2. I was oogling the new Czech "Mermaid" amphibian as well. My wife was keen on that idea. Now with this, is there going to be a seperate LSA-single engine seaplane rating (LSA-seaplane???)? If one already has PP-SEL, does one just add SES on to it and then be qualified to fly the thing? I'm already a relatively active pilot, but I truly hope this LSA thing really takes off and we start seeing these planes out at the FBO's! Ryan Madison, WI |
#3
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Ryan, I think one of the big roadblocks to LSA is economics. Insurance
companies won't insure classic taildraggers for student solo, so someone (FBO, student, flying club) is going to have to buy/lease a trike geared LSA for training. That means one of the new planes which seem to have a base price of 80,000 buckeroos. For that kind of money, you could get a decent 182! And don't forget checkouts for the instructor, parts inventory (which should be relatively small for such new planes), and maybe even metric tools (1) If someone is limited to SP, then yeah, 80 grand might seem like a good idea, or they could go experimental, but you'd still have to find an instructor to give lessons in a homebuilt...after you get the phase one flown off, of course. I really liked some of the new LSA's, and I hope it takes off...I'd like to fly some of these planes. John (1) The week before Oshkosh, I dropped by the FBO hangar where there was a NEW Katana (not the FBO's). The guys in the shop had to buy metric tools cause they didn't have any! This was a FBO that had been around for 75 years! |
#4
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IMHO,
If sport pilot gets to the every plane costs 80G it will die. Other than a few rich fellows that are going to lose their medicals the people that sport pilot was intended to target to add to aviation will be left out in the cold. Not all, but in alot of cases people into ultralights are there because they can not afford a certified aircraft,...a smart plane or kit builder could make those ultralighters sport pilots which would be a great percentage of their biz, or they can choose to cater to the rich and only get 3 to 4 % of the biz. You are correct in the dwindling number of taildraggers available for rent because of ridiculas insurance. There are a few places left but you really have to look for them. Insurance companies will always find a way to screw people ..so this is just par for the course for those leeches. A sport plane at tops should be in the 20-40 G range, if a company could make one lower all the better. Why would it cost 60 G for a place to make a new Cub or Champ? Simple GREED....and as long as that mentality prevails GA will die. Yes a company needs to make a profit but not 200%-300% from every sale. The metal to build a 601 or Sonex will run in the 3000-4000 price range, figure an engine to be 10 G , and there is nothing to building one of these planes so labor SHOULD not be a boatload. But I have seen these sell for 40-60G , and it's highway robbery. 25G would be good , and 30G probably not unreasonable. Hey they are not building 777's , just a small plane. I speak from experience in production of aircraft, from MD-80's to Learjets. A greedy company that wants to sell a 25G plane for 50G may sell 100...if he sold them for 25G he has the potential of selling 500, simply because it opens the market for more people. All I can fly is sport category and I WILL NEVER pay as much for a light sport plane as a 172, etc. I would simply build my own plane before that happens, or even a certified old project plane that meets the sport category. I realize some may not have the know how or tools to do that..they will find ultralights very cheap in the next few years if the sport category really takes off. Or they can surely check with a local EAA group and probably gets tons of help building their own light sport plane. When we "poor boys" HAVE to build one, it's one less they can sell at a trumped up price, one less that will be rented on the flight line. Just my take on it anyways Patrick student SPL aircraft structural mech "John T" wrote in message ... Ryan, I think one of the big roadblocks to LSA is economics. Insurance companies won't insure classic taildraggers for student solo, so someone (FBO, student, flying club) is going to have to buy/lease a trike geared LSA for training. That means one of the new planes which seem to have a base price of 80,000 buckeroos. For that kind of money, you could get a decent 182! And don't forget checkouts for the instructor, parts inventory (which should be relatively small for such new planes), and maybe even metric tools (1) If someone is limited to SP, then yeah, 80 grand might seem like a good idea, or they could go experimental, but you'd still have to find an instructor to give lessons in a homebuilt...after you get the phase one flown off, of course. I really liked some of the new LSA's, and I hope it takes off...I'd like to fly some of these planes. John (1) The week before Oshkosh, I dropped by the FBO hangar where there was a NEW Katana (not the FBO's). The guys in the shop had to buy metric tools cause they didn't have any! This was a FBO that had been around for 75 years! |
#5
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So let's do the math. If the metal is $4k, the engine is $10k, another $3k
for incidentals like tires, wires, and the like, and $5k in labor to build, the out-door cost is $22k. Sell it for $25k and you've made a whole $3k, times 500 customers is $1.5mil. Sell it for $50k and you've made $28k times 100 customers and you've made $2.8 mil, not to mention the headaches involved with another 400 customers and the service that entails. Like the man said, DO THE MATH. Jim The metal to build a 601 or Sonex will run in the 3000-4000 price range, figure an engine to be 10 G , and there is nothing to building one of these planes so labor SHOULD not be a boatload. But I have seen these sell for 40-60G , and it's highway robbery. 25G would be good , and 30G probably not unreasonable. Hey they are not building 777's , just a small plane. I speak from experience in production of aircraft, from MD-80's to Learjets. A greedy company that wants to sell a 25G plane for 50G may sell 100...if he sold them for 25G he has the potential of selling 500, simply because it opens the market for more people. |
#6
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Well DUHHHH JIM,
There are variables for every kind of plane, the estimated cost of a Tatcher CX4 is 8,000 with engine. Do you need to sell it for 50 G too? Take the blinders off!!!!!! Patrick "RST Engineering" wrote in message ... So let's do the math. If the metal is $4k, the engine is $10k, another $3k for incidentals like tires, wires, and the like, and $5k in labor to build, the out-door cost is $22k. Sell it for $25k and you've made a whole $3k, times 500 customers is $1.5mil. Sell it for $50k and you've made $28k times 100 customers and you've made $2.8 mil, not to mention the headaches involved with another 400 customers and the service that entails. Like the man said, DO THE MATH. Jim The metal to build a 601 or Sonex will run in the 3000-4000 price range, figure an engine to be 10 G , and there is nothing to building one of these planes so labor SHOULD not be a boatload. But I have seen these sell for 40-60G , and it's highway robbery. 25G would be good , and 30G probably not unreasonable. Hey they are not building 777's , just a small plane. I speak from experience in production of aircraft, from MD-80's to Learjets. A greedy company that wants to sell a 25G plane for 50G may sell 100...if he sold them for 25G he has the potential of selling 500, simply because it opens the market for more people. |
#7
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Not to mention then you can sell parts and such to 500 customers instead of
100, Jim you should understand how that works you are in biz. Lots of variables but the main point is companys are to greedy. Look at the greed our auto industry has gotten into( from their own and the greed of their workers). When things cost less you sell alot more, period. Patrick "RST Engineering" wrote in message ... So let's do the math. If the metal is $4k, the engine is $10k, another $3k for incidentals like tires, wires, and the like, and $5k in labor to build, the out-door cost is $22k. Sell it for $25k and you've made a whole $3k, times 500 customers is $1.5mil. Sell it for $50k and you've made $28k times 100 customers and you've made $2.8 mil, not to mention the headaches involved with another 400 customers and the service that entails. Like the man said, DO THE MATH. Jim The metal to build a 601 or Sonex will run in the 3000-4000 price range, figure an engine to be 10 G , and there is nothing to building one of these planes so labor SHOULD not be a boatload. But I have seen these sell for 40-60G , and it's highway robbery. 25G would be good , and 30G probably not unreasonable. Hey they are not building 777's , just a small plane. I speak from experience in production of aircraft, from MD-80's to Learjets. A greedy company that wants to sell a 25G plane for 50G may sell 100...if he sold them for 25G he has the potential of selling 500, simply because it opens the market for more people. |
#8
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Insurance companies won't insure classic taildraggers for student solo
That's not true. Insurance companies WILL insure Cubs and Champs and their ilk for student solo. There's a Cub locally that can be soloed at 10 hours tailwheel time, 5 hours make and model. Students can solo it. It's insured - and the owner went cheap on the insurance. He could have made it the same as the Champ in which I got my tailwheel signoff - 5 hours tailwheel, CFI checkout - but that cost a bit more. What insurance companies WON'T insure is students soloing after being taught by unqualified instructors. The local flgiht school at my home field has a Citabria on the line, and wants to check out a new instructor. They plan to take him from zero tailwheel time to giving dual in a Citabria - in 15 hours. That's when it all goes to hell. Minimum of 100 (or is it 150) hours total time, private pilot or better, 15 hours dual instruction in make and model to solo, and a huge bill for mediocre coverage. The honest truth is that you can't be a qualified tailwheel instructor with 15 tailwheel hours. Those low time instructors of yesteryear who taught in Champs and Cubs ALL had 200+ hours tailwheel time and had passed checkrides in taildraggers themselves. Flight schools are quick to blame the insurance, but the real problem is they are unwilling to do what it takes to attract and retain qualified tailwheel instructors. That means one of the new planes which seem to have a base price of 80,000 buckeroos. Something is severely wrong here. When I was in the Keys a few months ago, I met a guy who does lessons (officially, really they are usually rides) in a 2-seat floatplane ultralight trainer. He says it does just fine getting off the water in the Florida heat with two big people. It has a Rotax engine, and it is open cockpit with a dacron-covered wing, but it's a three axis machine, not a trike. He bought it new, ready to fly (not a kit) for under $25,000 two years ago, straight from the factory. It also exists in a landplane form, which is cheaper. My understanding is that the whole point of Sport Pilot was that such aircraft could be sold as LSA's, for general non-commercial (except instruction) use, not as ultralight trainers for instruction only. In its landplane configuration, it would be a perfectly serviceable general purpose three axis sport pilot trainer or pleasure craft. Any garden variety CFI could instruct in it. So what happened? I suspect that the process the FAA claimed was going to be easy for manufacturers is still bad enough that it winds up doubling or tripling the cost of the aircraft. That would be typical. In fact, I will only believe otherwise if I see those two-seat ultralight trainers selling as LSA's for no more than 10% more than they cost as UL trainers. Michael |
#9
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The Polish say that this is ****ing in the soup. You get more soup, but it
doesn't taste anywhere near as good. Jim "W P Dixon" wrote in message ... Not to mention then you can sell parts and such to 500 customers instead of 100, Jim you should understand how that works you are in biz. Lots of variables but the main point is companys are to greedy. Look at the greed our auto industry has gotten into( from their own and the greed of their workers). When things cost less you sell alot more, period. |
#10
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This versus bankruptcy for trying to sell a 80G sport plane? Hard to tell
who is ****ing in what ain't it? Do you think a 80G sport plane will be a moneymaker? I don't, that's the basis for my rant I would like to hear your opinion on the 80G sport planes though, when I need sarcasm I just ask my wife for that I am sure we don't need it to discuss the cost of a sport plane. Patrick "RST Engineering" wrote in message ... The Polish say that this is ****ing in the soup. You get more soup, but it doesn't taste anywhere near as good. Jim "W P Dixon" wrote in message ... Not to mention then you can sell parts and such to 500 customers instead of 100, Jim you should understand how that works you are in biz. Lots of variables but the main point is companys are to greedy. Look at the greed our auto industry has gotten into( from their own and the greed of their workers). When things cost less you sell alot more, period. |
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