Is a 45 year old student pilot considered 'youth'?

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:

I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it.

Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.

Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:



I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it.



Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.



Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.

yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.

On 2/22/2013 4:08 PM, son_of_flubber wrote:
xxxxAt that point, and only at that point, I will take up golf... well maybe not. I don't look good in plaid.

Nobody does. :-)

Tony "6N"

On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:34:59 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:







I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it.







Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.







Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.



yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.

I wonder why people wait so long. I switched from hang gliding to sailplanes about the same time I bought my first house and my child was born...
At the rate I am refinancing to pay for my gliders I will never payoff my house.
I guess I am not a good example :-)

Ramy

On Friday, February 22, 2013 10:48:27 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:34:59 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:



On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:















I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it.















Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.















Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.







yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.



I wonder why people wait so long. I switched from hang gliding to sailplanes about the same time I bought my first house and my child was born...

At the rate I am refinancing to pay for my gliders I will never payoff my house.

I guess I am not a good example :-)



Ramy

i wouldn't say that Ramy. I'm trying to do my best to get enough equity in my house so I can buy a Quintus

On Friday, February 22, 2013 9:06:43 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
On Friday, February 22, 2013 10:48:27 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:

On Friday, February 22, 2013 4:34:59 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:



On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:05:10 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:







On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:































I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it.































Both demographics are important. Today's youth will be 45 in 2038. The pattern of early exposure and mid-life adoption is well established.































Teaching basic skills to the young addresses the difficulty of teaching those skills to the middle aged. Plus line boys speed up the launch rate. They hustle.















yep, lots of my students have been out of flying for about 18-23 years. some had gotten their licenses in college, some had just taken a lesson or two, but many had done some flying in high school and college and then decided that a job, house, wife, and kids were more important, and were coming back to it after the house was paid off and the kids out of the house.







I wonder why people wait so long. I switched from hang gliding to sailplanes about the same time I bought my first house and my child was born...



At the rate I am refinancing to pay for my gliders I will never payoff my house.



I guess I am not a good example :-)







Ramy



i wouldn't say that Ramy. I'm trying to do my best to get enough equity in my house so I can buy a Quintus

Might be easier to get enough equity on a Quintus to buy a house...

Bonus Step: Start launching with a winch. That will pull in, train and retain the 'young Youth' pilots. It will probably shorten the calendar duration of everyone's training because more flights will get launched on Saturday afternoon.

WOW - you figured that one out all by yourself or did you cheat and look at what is going on across the pond?? ;-)
A small group in the US - commonly referred to as the winch-heads - has been preaching that for years by now and we are slowly seeing results. A number of new winch operations have started up across the US using rebuilt Gehrlein-type winches and there is at least one exciting new home-built winch concept in the making. Our operation is doing a fair amount of pre-solo trainig on the winch and the kids love it! Cheaper and much more of a wow-factor than aero-towing: super-car acceleration, climb rates which top that of the best brand C, M or P power plane, climb angles of 40deg+, etc. to name a few.

Uli

WOW - you figured that one out all by yourself or did you cheat and look at what is going on across the pond?? ;-)

I flew 2011 and 2012 with a German club at a field that support six resident glider clubs. On any given day I was there the number of youths pretty much matched the number of older members. I flew a half dozen weekends in England, too.

More than one of the older members explained the pattern of "license while in school job/wife/kids/house back to flying as a 40-year-old" to me.

The teenagers were soloing in an ASK-21, getting their first single-seat experience in an ASK-18, moving onto an LS1 or LS4, then a Discus - all before even getting a license. A winch launch in this club is $6 if you have a license, $5 of you don't. The ASK-21 is $18/hr, billed by the minute; the ASK-18 and LS1/4 slightly less.

Everyone can get three or four short lessons (one or two longer ones if thermals) for less than the price of a single aero tow!

It's quite typical in a German club that the student pilot's first aero tow takes place just before the check ride, doing enough that both winch and aero tow show up on the newly printed license.

A very large fraction of the students who solo will eventually get a license and eventually let life's realities get in the way of flying. Most of them will come back.

No one in Europe thinks of the ASK-21 as an "advanced trainer" that can only be flown after mastering an SGS 2-33. There are 14-year-olds in Europe soloing -21's, flying over the Autobahn that they won't be able to drive on for three more years!

I have to agree with Uli about the excitement of the winch. My log book shows about 270 flights. The private- commercial- (both in the US) and aerobatic training is all aero tow, but virtually all of the rest is via winch launch. All of my longest flights to-date were winch launches.

I don't know what all the answers are. Membership in German clubs is slowly declining as more and more competition for time arrises. It's hard for people to get to the glider field at 10:00 and stay to 5:00 every day they want to fly; there's no reserving a time and just showing up for that.

The Brits have great success doing things similarly to the Germans. The ASK-13 (nicely spin-able) and the ASK-21 are generally the trainer(s) of choice there, too. The Brits have a very popular Air Cadet program somewhat analogous to the Cadet Program of the US Civil Air Patrol.

Soaring in the US seems to be about as expensive per flight as powered flying. I've paid "minimum per flight charges" for five minutes in a 2-33 that were higher than an hour in "a real glider" elsewhere. My local FBO charges $110/hour for an older, IFR C-172. How does that compare to $75/hr for a 2-33 plus a tow?

My suggestions:

Prices down, recruiting up, a/c utilization up, publicity up

This won't work everywhere, but what if we encouraged FBOs to refer would-be pilots who are too young to have much money to join the CAP and learn to fly through the glider program. CAP benefits. The new glider pilot benefits.. Ultimately even the FBO benefits as the glider pilot considers adding on powered flight. It's not for everyone, but it is a relatively inexpensive way to fly gliders.

Long ramble - hope it's of some value!

Terry

On Friday, February 22, 2013 6:58:19 PM UTC-5, Ramy wrote:
On Friday, February 22, 2013 1:15:03 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote: As the new SSA Youth Committee Chairman i feel i can comment on this with authority. No you are not considered Youth, even if you act like you are under 26. Sorry. That said you are absolutely right based on most of my observations at the airport/gliderport, mid 40's is a very popular age to get into or back into aviation. I think the main point of this thread is that instead of focusing on attracting real youth, we should focus on the middle age crowd who can actually afford soaring and have the time to pursue it. We simply can't compete against hang gliding and paragliding for the young crowd. Ramy

The focus should not be on age, but enthusiasm. That comes from people of all ages. The ones that have it, and are nurtured, will be around a long time. The others will simply go do something else.
Best "target" is lapsed pilot with teen aged kid who is interested in flying. We see this a lot.
UH

On Saturday, February 23, 2013 7:40:53 AM UTC-5, Terry Pitts wrote:

I flew 2011 and 2012 with a German club at a field that support six resident glider clubs.

By contrast in the USA, when the 2-33s finally wear out, soaring may follow the "yachting club" model. Very small, exclusive, and expensive.