Off the shelf gear in military a/c

In article rI7fb.45205$a16.36568@lakeread01, "Les Matheson"
wrote:

When I was still on active duty, we were doing some navigation experiments
with moving map technology in the MC-130E. Basically we took a handheld
Garmin GPS and cabled it to two Dell laptops running a flight planning
program. Additionally we did some radio tie-ins to get real time e-mail
over HF for inflight updates. besides text, we pushed photos from plane to
ground, plane to plane and ground to plane. All was commercial software,
and except for the secure HF radio it was commercial hardware.

Commercial GPS works OK in a transport, even a transport with weapons :-)
But you didn't tie the commercial GPS in to the weapons system.
The reason is that it does not have the data rate nor the accuracy to
target weapons.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

Didn't say we did tie it in to weapons, besides the MC-130E doesn't have any
weapons aside from the BLU-82 (and we can already put that where we need
to). We already had a GPS on the plane. We used the hand held only as a
demonstrator, because we had no way (without megabucks mod) to get GPS into
the laptop software. Our purpose was to demonstrate the application, so we
could push for the megabucks mod.

--
Les
F-4C(WW),D,E,G(WW)/AC-130A/MC-130E EWO (ret)

"Harry Andreas" wrote in message
...
In article rI7fb.45205$a16.36568@lakeread01, "Les Matheson"
wrote:

When I was still on active duty, we were doing some navigation
experiments
with moving map technology in the MC-130E. Basically we took a handheld
Garmin GPS and cabled it to two Dell laptops running a flight planning
program. Additionally we did some radio tie-ins to get real time e-mail
over HF for inflight updates. besides text, we pushed photos from plane
to
ground, plane to plane and ground to plane. All was commercial
software,
and except for the secure HF radio it was commercial hardware.

Commercial GPS works OK in a transport, even a transport with weapons :-)
But you didn't tie the commercial GPS in to the weapons system.
The reason is that it does not have the data rate nor the accuracy to
target weapons.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

For systems intended for transport platforms where the environment is
fairly benign, ruggedized commercial or even pure commercial
may work.

According to the superlative "The March Up" (by Bing West), the
marines in Iraq actually preferred the commercial GPS units to the
military variety.

Not in that book, but probably on TV or in the WSJ, I recall that one
U.S. officer had his mother mail him a store-bought GPS unit.

I recommend The March Up. www.warbirdforum.com/marchup.htm

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Off-the-shelf stuff is attractive, at first glance, as it tends to be MUCH
cheaper and lighter than mil-spec equipment.

But the stuff at CompUSA wll tend to degrade and eventually die when
operated under your typical harsh mil conditions.
Your typical Dell laptop will eventually fail when subjected to the
temperature extremes, vibration, bumps, cable tugs, sand and dust that
equipment encounters in the field.

The mil-spec equipment will instead have 1/4 inch thick aluminum or
tuitanium cases, cables and cable connectors that you can tow a jeep with,
and lots of o-ring seals around every sliding or rotating part to keep out
sand, dust, and water.

So the $150 GPS's your mom sent will be wonderful to use for a while, but
after it has been dropped 20 times, onto rocks, sand, water, had 9mm rounds
bounce off it, you might want to pull out the clunky old mil-spec GPS, which
will still work after all that.

In article , Cub Driver
wrote:

For systems intended for transport platforms where the environment is
fairly benign, ruggedized commercial or even pure commercial
may work.

According to the superlative "The March Up" (by Bing West), the
marines in Iraq actually preferred the commercial GPS units to the
military variety.

Not in that book, but probably on TV or in the WSJ, I recall that one
U.S. officer had his mother mail him a store-bought GPS unit.

I'll take a look at the book, Dan.
I was directing my comments at aircraft electronics though.
Handheld GPS isn't aviation. (not purposely anyway)

regards

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

In article zUxgb.704095$uu5.115935@sccrnsc04, "George R. Gonzalez"
wrote:

Off-the-shelf stuff is attractive, at first glance, as it tends to be MUCH
cheaper and lighter than mil-spec equipment.

Not in fighter aircraft applications. COTS is neither cheaper nor lighter.
It's a common mistake made by those who are beguiled by falling
prices on commercial computers, and only look at the initial
purchase price.

But if you look at the problem as the amount of resources you need
to solve the problem, i.e. how much processing you need to do to
get the result you need for the mission, you will discover that mil
packaged electronics, being far more densly packed than commercial
stuff, is lighter and takes up less space, and is more reliable.
If you throw in the cost of airframe mods to fit the bulkier and
heavier COTS, and take into account the extra fuel to lift the heavier
system, and the lower reliability across the airframe life, and the
extra maintenance required for a less reliable system and the extra
spares in the pipeline, suddenly COTS doesn't look as attractive.

In those applications where space and weight are less critical, such
as transport aircraft, or converted transport aircraft, or where
high vibration and temperature extremes and condensing water
are not a factor, then COTS becomes a player.
Trouble is, people look at a successful insertion of COTS in an E-2C
(say) and think it can also be done in an F-16. Not likely.
My 2 cents.

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

"George R. Gonzalez" wrote in message news:zUxgb.704095$uu5.115935@sccrnsc04...
Off-the-shelf stuff is attractive, at first glance, as it tends to be MUCH
cheaper and lighter than mil-spec equipment.

But the stuff at CompUSA wll tend to degrade and eventually die when
operated under your typical harsh mil conditions.
Your typical Dell laptop will eventually fail when subjected to the
temperature extremes, vibration, bumps, cable tugs, sand and dust that
equipment encounters in the field.

Odd. Last big (corps level) exercise I played in the Dells were
predominant in the various tactical headquarters (previous Compaqs
indeed had not stood up very well, even under harsh *office*
conditions). Most of the laptops now purchased by the military are
commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS); the day of the old "cram eight pounds
of computer into sixty pounds of military packaging and paint it
green" died with those laughable US Army SIDPERS boxes that few could
use, and even fewer bothered to actually lug out of the office and
into the field.


The mil-spec equipment will instead have 1/4 inch thick aluminum or
tuitanium cases, cables and cable connectors that you can tow a jeep with,
and lots of o-ring seals around every sliding or rotating part to keep out
sand, dust, and water.

Not when it comes to computers, at least not for the most part
anymore. NCO's and junior officers are becoming increasingly reliant
upon the commercial PDA's, and laptops have been going the commercial
route for years now.


So the $150 GPS's your mom sent will be wonderful to use for a while, but
after it has been dropped 20 times, onto rocks, sand, water, had 9mm rounds
bounce off it, you might want to pull out the clunky old mil-spec GPS, which
will still work after all that.

I seriously doubt that the issue GPS (PLGRS) receiver we received
would withstand a 9mm shot, either. It was heavier by far than the
civilian models, though it also was more accurate; but it was also a
pain to operate. The military has too often been guilty of the "gotta
have it developed exclusively for us" mentality; hence the Army battle
command software that required oodles of specialized training, and was
then cumbersome as all get out. Much better to take advantage of the
skills that the troops have already picked up elsewhere (i.e., use of
HTML and commercial browsers--worked great at the division level for
my old division, after being developed by a few troopies in the 3rd
ID(M)).

The silver lining, of sorts, is that the DoD still runs the COTS
competition every year, where various commercial products are proposed
for military use; it and other COTS programs have resulted in a few
nice things for the military services (like a commercially
manufactured panel bridge being used by the Army from the Mabey Bridge
folks in the UK). Without spending ten billion dollars for superfluous
R&D. Good deal.

Brooks

I was directing my comments at aircraft electronics though.
Handheld GPS isn't aviation. (not purposely anyway)

Oh, I appreciate that! I didn't mean to suggest that an F-15 pilot
punch the scroll button on a Garmin III+.

(As it happens, the Garmin III+ is what I use for navigation. But at
2900 feet and 60 knots, I have a perfectly adequate fail-safe
mechanism in the sectional chart on my right thigh.)

See www.pipercubforum.com/garmin.htm for the high-tech rig.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: www.danford.net/letters.htm#9

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver wrote:

(As it happens, the Garmin III+ is what I use for navigation. But at
2900 feet and 60 knots, I have a perfectly adequate fail-safe
mechanism in the sectional chart on my right thigh.)

See www.pipercubforum.com/garmin.htm for the high-tech rig.

all the best -- Dan Ford

Dan,

Like the setup. I've got a Garmin GPS III with over 2000 hours on it
and love the thing. Little easier for me to pull over and check the map
at 70 mph and ground level if I get lost though.

Leaving today for business with the garmin on the dashboard. My Wall
Street G3 will be coupled to it for a moving map. 9+ hours of music in
my itunes library for decent music during the trip.

Hoping to locate some derilict military aircraft in NW Missouri if time
allows. (There's my link to a RAM topic)

MAH