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Snaps in the Decathlon



 
 
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  #1  
Old April 3rd 04, 04:03 AM
Dave Russell
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Default Snaps in the Decathlon

My latest endeavor has been to learn to snap-roll the Super D. A
couple of training flights in an Extra 300 proved that I could learn
to fly them, but transferring that experience to the Decathlon has
been humbling. (As an aside, I *strongly* suggest you do not go fly
an Extra 300 when you own a Decathlon. I *love* the Super D and all,
but Holy Cow, Batman! The Extra is simply an astonishing machine.)

Anyway, my snap rolls suck. The break is mushy, the rotation is
sloppy, my exits are horrible. The rotation is slow enough that I
actually can 'think' while it goes around, but I haven't been able to
get any meaningful acceleration with forward stick.

Any Decathlon instructors wanna gimme a few tips? (And *please* don't
tell me to just trade up to an Extra... poking fun at an addict in
withdrawl is cruel and mean.)

Dave Russell
  #2  
Old April 3rd 04, 04:14 PM
jsmith
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Default

Dave, one of the reasons we stopped doing snaps in the lower competition
levels was because of seats breaking in the Decathlons and Citabrias. As
with many maneuvers, people are flying their entries too fast, causing
higher forces on the airframes and components, causing things to break.
(Remember the Pitts longeron breaks? Pitts put out a really good report
based on the testing they did to determine why their airplanes were
breaking this way.)
Eric Mueller's book recommends practicing your maneuvers at the slowest
possible airspeed which will allow completion without stalling.
This serves to provide control feedback to the pilot and reduce the
forces on the aircraft.

Dave Russell wrote:
My latest endeavor has been to learn to snap-roll the Super D. A
couple of training flights in an Extra 300 proved that I could learn
to fly them, but transferring that experience to the Decathlon has
been humbling. (As an aside, I *strongly* suggest you do not go fly
an Extra 300 when you own a Decathlon. I *love* the Super D and all,
but Holy Cow, Batman! The Extra is simply an astonishing machine.)
Anyway, my snap rolls suck. The break is mushy, the rotation is
sloppy, my exits are horrible. The rotation is slow enough that I
actually can 'think' while it goes around, but I haven't been able to
get any meaningful acceleration with forward stick.
Any Decathlon instructors wanna gimme a few tips? (And *please* don't
tell me to just trade up to an Extra... poking fun at an addict in
withdrawl is cruel and mean.)
Dave Russell

  #3  
Old April 5th 04, 03:40 AM
Rich Stowell
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Default

(Dave Russell) wrote in message . com...
My latest endeavor has been to learn to snap-roll the Super D. A
couple of training flights in an Extra 300 proved that I could learn
to fly them, but transferring that experience to the Decathlon has
been humbling. (As an aside, I *strongly* suggest you do not go fly
an Extra 300 when you own a Decathlon. I *love* the Super D and all,
but Holy Cow, Batman! The Extra is simply an astonishing machine.)

Anyway, my snap rolls suck. The break is mushy, the rotation is
sloppy, my exits are horrible. The rotation is slow enough that I
actually can 'think' while it goes around, but I haven't been able to
get any meaningful acceleration with forward stick.

Any Decathlon instructors wanna gimme a few tips? (And *please* don't
tell me to just trade up to an Extra... poking fun at an addict in
withdrawl is cruel and mean.)

Dave Russell



Hi Dave,

It's probably way easier for me to show you how to do them than to try
to explain them here. In the end, it has to do with timing. That and
the fact that you need not (better not) bury the elevator control full
aft.

Here's what I suggest you try in your airplane:

Establish level slow flight at 85 mph. Leave the power alone
thereafter. Mentally give yourself a countdown -- 3, 2, 1 -- at 1,
smoothly but briskly apply full rudder as you would for any spin
entry. When you sense that the rudder is passing though 3/4 of its
full travel, "flick" the elevator aft just far enough to induce the
stall. At 85 mph, that'll be about a 2 to 2-1/2 G tug on the stick.
You want to generate that G with as little stick movement as possible.

As soon as the airplane snaps, release a touch of the aft elevator.
Wait until nearly upright, then apply full opposite rudder followed by
rudder neutral. In the Decathlon, you will also likely need full
opposite aileron to keep that long, thick wing from over rotating
during recovery. The elevator doesn't really need to move at all
during recovery if done properly.

Also, the Europeans use better terminology for the maneuver, calling
it a "Flick Roll" -- which really is pretty close to how you should
move the elevator. I liken the elevator movement to casting a fishing
line: flick your wrist rather than yanking the pole with your entire
arm/shoulder.

Again, I could show you in less than 30 minutes, but you insist on
going to AZ to fly those darned Extras ; )

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com
  #4  
Old April 5th 04, 11:32 PM
Borislav Deianov
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Default

Rich,

Rich Stowell wrote:
(Dave Russell) wrote in message . com...
Anyway, my snap rolls suck. The break is mushy, the rotation is
sloppy, my exits are horrible. The rotation is slow enough that I
actually can 'think' while it goes around, but I haven't been able to
get any meaningful acceleration with forward stick.


I have the same problem as Dave, except I'm flying a Citabria 7KCAB
(fixed pitch, 150hp). And it's only a problem when I fly solo. I can
do a reasonable snap roll with an instructor in the back.

Here's what I suggest you try in your airplane [Super D]:

Establish level slow flight at 85 mph. Leave the power alone
thereafter. Mentally give yourself a countdown -- 3, 2, 1 -- at 1,
smoothly but briskly apply full rudder as you would for any spin
entry. When you sense that the rudder is passing though 3/4 of its
full travel, "flick" the elevator aft just far enough to induce the
stall. At 85 mph, that'll be about a 2 to 2-1/2 G tug on the stick.
You want to generate that G with as little stick movement as possible.


Here are the steps I was taught for the 7KCAB:

- 1800 RPM, slow to 65mph
- 2200 RPM and lower the nose to accelerate to 80mph
- flick the elevator and as the nose goes through the horizon, briskly
feed in the rudder
- recover with opposite rudder and slight forward stick
- recovery seems to take about 1/2 turn rolling left, 1/3 turn rolling right

This works pretty well when flying dual but I'm always getting mushy
slooowww rolls when trying it solo (if I'm able to make it go around
at all). Any hints?

Thanks,
Boris
  #5  
Old April 6th 04, 05:06 PM
EDR
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Default

In article , Borislav
Deianov wrote:

I have the same problem as Dave, except I'm flying a Citabria 7KCAB
(fixed pitch, 150hp). And it's only a problem when I fly solo. I can
do a reasonable snap roll with an instructor in the back.


Fly solo from the rear seat.
It snaps reallly well!
Run some CG calculations for different fuel loads.
  #6  
Old April 7th 04, 03:10 AM
Dave Russell
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Default

EDR wrote in message ...

Fly solo from the rear seat.
It snaps reallly well!
Run some CG calculations for different fuel loads.


May be illegal, but... my 7GCAA was well within the CG limits in that
configuration. :-)

-DJR
  #7  
Old April 7th 04, 04:20 AM
john smith
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Default

Dave Russell wrote:
EDR wrote in message ...


Fly solo from the rear seat.
It snaps reallly well!
Run some CG calculations for different fuel loads.



May be illegal, but... my 7GCAA was well within the CG limits in that
configuration. :-)


Where does it say it is illegal?

  #8  
Old April 7th 04, 08:36 AM
Ditch
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Default

Where does it say it is illegal?

Isn't there a placard that says "Solo from front seat only"?


-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*
  #9  
Old April 8th 04, 09:58 PM
EDR
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Default

In article , Ditch
wrote:

Where does it say it is illegal?


Isn't there a placard that says "Solo from front seat only"?


What year?
There might be on the newer ones.
  #10  
Old April 9th 04, 02:05 AM
Rich Stowell
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Default

Borislav Deianov wrote in message ...
Rich,

Rich Stowell wrote:
(Dave Russell) wrote in message . com...
Anyway, my snap rolls suck. The break is mushy, the rotation is
sloppy, my exits are horrible. The rotation is slow enough that I
actually can 'think' while it goes around, but I haven't been able to
get any meaningful acceleration with forward stick.


I have the same problem as Dave, except I'm flying a Citabria 7KCAB
(fixed pitch, 150hp). And it's only a problem when I fly solo. I can
do a reasonable snap roll with an instructor in the back.

Here's what I suggest you try in your airplane [Super D]:

Establish level slow flight at 85 mph. Leave the power alone
thereafter. Mentally give yourself a countdown -- 3, 2, 1 -- at 1,
smoothly but briskly apply full rudder as you would for any spin
entry. When you sense that the rudder is passing though 3/4 of its
full travel, "flick" the elevator aft just far enough to induce the
stall. At 85 mph, that'll be about a 2 to 2-1/2 G tug on the stick.
You want to generate that G with as little stick movement as possible.


Here are the steps I was taught for the 7KCAB:

- 1800 RPM, slow to 65mph
- 2200 RPM and lower the nose to accelerate to 80mph
- flick the elevator and as the nose goes through the horizon, briskly
feed in the rudder
- recover with opposite rudder and slight forward stick
- recovery seems to take about 1/2 turn rolling left, 1/3 turn rolling right

This works pretty well when flying dual but I'm always getting mushy
slooowww rolls when trying it solo (if I'm able to make it go around
at all). Any hints?

Thanks,
Boris



Hi Boris,

Of course, someone in the back seat shifts the c.g. a bit more aft,
allowing you to attain slightly higher angles of attack and better
stall/spin departures.

I would recommend trying essentially the same thing I suggested to
Dave for your solo ventures, namely:

In your Citabria, establish level slow flight at 80 mph. Leave the
power as is for now (later you can try adding a bit more power, but
for now, work on the rudder/elevator timing).

Lead the snap roll with brisk rudder application followed by
sufficient aft elevator to stall (about a 2 G or so tug on the stick).
As soon as the airplane departs, release a touch of the aft elevator,
etc.

I believe rudder-then-elevator will have better results for you than
the other way around.

Let me know how that goes and we can continue with the lesson!

Rich
http://www.richstowell.com
 




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