Garmin 430 and ILS

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 20:28:39 GMT, wrote:

What exactly does "primary source" mean, anyway...
It's a bunch of baloney, once you start thinking about it

What I mean is that you're not looking at the underlying navaid *at
all.* Not turned in.

Well, why isn't it turned on?

'Cause the 430 is all I have. (not really, but for the sake of
argument.)

You should discuss that with Garmin.

I've sent them an email, but I'm skeptical of receiving a coherent
response. ;-)

If you can retrieve it from a current database with an IFR
approach-approved GPS, it is legal to use. You will note the warning
message Garmin provides when you pull up and ILS approach.

I checked with the AIM again, and what it says seems on point:

-------Snip------
Do not attempt to fly an approach unless the procedure is...identified
as "GPS" on the approach chart...The navigation database may contain
information about nonoverlay approach procedures that is intended to
be used to enhance position orientation, generally by providing a map,
while flying these approaches using conventional NAVAIDs.
-------Snip-----

Garmin's position, as you know, is that you aren't "established" on
the approach until you're on final. Are you aware of any
justification for this position at all?

(Yes, I have asked Garmin the same thing, but haven't received an
answer yet.)

Greg Esres wrote:

If you can retrieve it from a current database with an IFR
approach-approved GPS, it is legal to use. You will note the warning
message Garmin provides when you pull up and ILS approach.

I checked with the AIM again, and what it says seems on point:

-------Snip------
Do not attempt to fly an approach unless the procedure is...identified
as "GPS" on the approach chart...The navigation database may contain
information about nonoverlay approach procedures that is intended to
be used to enhance position orientation, generally by providing a map,
while flying these approaches using conventional NAVAIDs.
-------Snip-----

Garmin's position, as you know, is that you aren't "established" on
the approach until you're on final. Are you aware of any
justification for this position at all?

I think I have covered it, but let me try again: for purposes of TERPS
and regulatory requirements to be established, an IAP can begin as early
as a feeder fix (before an IAF, where there is a feeder fix).

For purposes of the specifications for IFR GPS avionics, the "approach" is
*only* the final approach segment. The other segments are terminal
routes, and use terminal CDI scaling/sensitivity/RAIM. Only the approach
mode uses approach scaling/sensitivity/RAIM.

You won't find a regulation that says this, nor will you find an FAA
document that proclaims this to pilots. Nonetheless, all TSO-C129
avionics and all higher-end LNAV/FMS platform treat the final approach
segment as the "approach," per se.

wrote in message ...

You won't find a regulation that says this, nor will you find an FAA
document that proclaims this to pilots. Nonetheless, all TSO-C129
avionics and all higher-end LNAV/FMS platform treat the final approach
segment as the "approach," per se.


The AIM sorta kinda maybe alludes to it when talking about WAAS units.

" The pilot enters a unique 5-digit number provided on the approach chart,
and the receiver recalls the matching final approach segment from the
aircraft database. ....... The pilot should confirm that the correct final
approach segment was loaded by cross checking the Approach ID, which is also
provided on the approach chart. "

wrote in message ...


I think I have covered it, but let me try again: for purposes of TERPS
and regulatory requirements to be established, an IAP can begin as early
as a feeder fix (before an IAF, where there is a feeder fix).

Example : GUMLE at Juneau (JNU) GPS V RWY 8.
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0501/01191RV8.PDF

For purposes of the specifications for IFR GPS avionics, the
"approach" is *only* the final approach segment. The other segments
are terminal routes, and use terminal CDI scaling/sensitivity/RAIM.
Only the approach mode uses approach scaling/sensitivity/RAIM.

None of that is relevant. You're talking about how this stuff is
stored in the database.

The directive to pilots is that only approaches labeled "GPS" can be
flown with GPS. The word "approach" clearly refers to a pilot's
understanding of what an approach is.

Got a phone number for the guys that write this section in the AIM?

On Thu, 17 Feb 2005 05:11:11 GMT, Greg Esres
wrote:

The directive to pilots is that only approaches labeled "GPS" can be
flown with GPS.


What does this mean, exactly?

Must I turn off my GPS if I am flying a VOR or NDB approach?

Will I lose my certificate if I look at my GPS during the approach?
Will I lose my certificate if I look at the GPS more than I do the
OBS/ADF?

These generalized statements one finds in the AIM and elsewhere need
to be examined for specific meanings. When that is done, one finds
that most of them are absolute garbage.

Greg Esres wrote:

For purposes of the specifications for IFR GPS avionics, the
"approach" is *only* the final approach segment. The other segments
are terminal routes, and use terminal CDI scaling/sensitivity/RAIM.
Only the approach mode uses approach scaling/sensitivity/RAIM.

None of that is relevant. You're talking about how this stuff is
stored in the database.

No, we were talking about how Garmin posts a cautionary note about not
using GPS for the final approach segment of an ILS or localizer type
IAP.



The directive to pilots is that only approaches labeled "GPS" can be
flown with GPS. The word "approach" clearly refers to a pilot's
understanding of what an approach is.

Got a phone number for the guys that write this section in the AIM?

You want to enter into a consulting agreement?