Contact Approach

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:57:55 -0600, "Stan Prevost"
wrote:

Where does the 1000 come from?

P/CG

VISUAL APPROACH- An approach conducted on an instrument flight rules (IFR)
flight plan which authorizes the pilot to proceed visually and clear of
clouds to the airport. The pilot must, at all times, have either the
airport or the preceding aircraft in sight. This approach must be
authorized and under the control of the appropriate air traffic control
facility. Reported weather at the airport must be ceiling at or above 1,000
feet and visibility of 3 miles or greater.

AIM 5-4-21
5-4-21. Visual Approach

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes
a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport. The pilot
must have either the airport or the preceding identified aircraft in sight.
This approach must be authorized and controlled by the appropriate air
traffic control facility. Reported weather at the airport must have a
ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater. ATC may
authorize this type approach when it will be operationally beneficial.
Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual
meteorological conditions. Cloud clearance requirements of 14 CFR Section
91.155 are not applicable, unless required by operation specifications.

b. Operating to an Airport Without Weather Reporting Service. ATC will
advise the pilot when weather is not available at the destination airport.
ATC may initiate a visual approach provided there is a reasonable assurance
that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and
visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g. area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:59:39 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

That's not a prerequisite for a visual approach clearance. The controller
must ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot
has been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport.
1000/3 would be needed only at an airport in a surface area.

You are correct, except that in the absence of reported weather, there has
to be "reasonable assurance" that the weather at the destination airport is
VFR:

AIM 5-4-21

b. Operating to an Airport Without Weather Reporting Service. ATC will
advise the pilot when weather is not available at the destination airport.
ATC may initiate a visual approach provided there is a reasonable assurance
that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and
visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g. area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.).


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:59:39 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote:

1000/3 would be needed only at an airport in a surface area.

It is interesting that the AIM does not restrict that requirement to any
particular class of airports. Where is it stated that the requirement is
needed only at "an airport in a surface area"?

=====================================
5-4-21

b. Operating to an Airport Without Weather Reporting Service. ATC will
advise the pilot when weather is not available at the destination airport.
ATC may initiate a visual approach provided there is a reasonable assurance
that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and
visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g. area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.).
===================================


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...

It is interesting that the AIM does not restrict that requirement to any
particular class of airports. Where is it stated that the requirement is
needed only at "an airport in a surface area"?


The requirement is for VFR conditions, only in a surface area are VFR
conditions 1000/3.

"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 09:57:55 -0600, "Stan Prevost"
wrote:

Where does the 1000 come from?

P/CG

VISUAL APPROACH- An approach conducted on an instrument flight rules (IFR)
flight plan which authorizes the pilot to proceed visually and clear of
clouds to the airport. The pilot must, at all times, have either the
airport or the preceding aircraft in sight. This approach must be
authorized and under the control of the appropriate air traffic control
facility. Reported weather at the airport must be ceiling at or above
1,000
feet and visibility of 3 miles or greater.

AIM 5-4-21
5-4-21. Visual Approach

a. A visual approach is conducted on an IFR flight plan and authorizes
a pilot to proceed visually and clear of clouds to the airport. The pilot
must have either the airport or the preceding identified aircraft in
sight.
This approach must be authorized and controlled by the appropriate air
traffic control facility. Reported weather at the airport must have a
ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and visibility 3 miles or greater. ATC may
authorize this type approach when it will be operationally beneficial.
Visual approaches are an IFR procedure conducted under IFR in visual
meteorological conditions. Cloud clearance requirements of 14 CFR Section
91.155 are not applicable, unless required by operation specifications.

b. Operating to an Airport Without Weather Reporting Service. ATC will
advise the pilot when weather is not available at the destination airport.
ATC may initiate a visual approach provided there is a reasonable
assurance
that weather at the airport is a ceiling at or above 1,000 feet and
visibility 3 miles or greater (e.g. area weather reports, PIREPs, etc.).




Yes, but ATC is bound by 7110.65, which in 7-4-3 says (without regard to
airspace class or surface areas)
b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking
aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and
ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has
been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport.
Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather
information where AWOS/ASOS is available.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

Where does the 1000 come from?


From FAR 91.155(c).


§ 91.155 Basic VFR weather minimums.

(c) Except as provided in §91.157, no person may operate an aircraft
beneath the ceiling under VFR within the lateral boundaries of controlled
airspace designated to the surface for an airport when the ceiling is less
than 1,000 feet.


That does not define VFR conditions and is not permissive about operating
below 1000 ft under VFR. One still has to obey airspace cloud clearance
rules.

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

That does not define VFR conditions and is not permissive about operating
below 1000 ft under VFR.

FAR 91.155 most certainly does define VFR conditions and we are not
discussing operating below 1000' AGL under VFR.



One still has to obey airspace cloud clearance rules.


Only when one is operating VFR, we're discussing an IFR operation here.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
k.net...

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

That does not define VFR conditions and is not permissive about operating
below 1000 ft under VFR.

FAR 91.155 most certainly does define VFR conditions

91.155(a) defines VFR conditions for each class of airspace. 91.155(c),
which was the specific regulation you referenced, defines a prohibition
against VFR operations under certain conditions in any airspace.

and we are not discussing operating below 1000' AGL under VFR.

The issue at hand is the requirement in the ATC manual for ATC to "ensure
that weather conditions at the airport are VFR " as a condition to issuing
a visual approach clearance. VFR conditions are defined in 91.155(a)
subject to an additional Class G permissive rule in 91.155(b) and
prohibitions against operations under certain conditions in (c) for all
airspace and (d) in B/C/D/E airspace.




One still has to obey airspace cloud clearance rules.


Only when one is operating VFR, we're discussing an IFR operation here.


For VFR conditions to exist as required by 7110.65 7-4-3(b) in order to
clear an aircraft for the IFR operation under discussion, one must be able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules. FAR
91.155(a) defines those conditions subject to additional restrictions in
91.155(c) and (d).

"Stan Prevost" wrote in message
...

91.155(a) defines VFR conditions for each class of airspace.


Correct.



91.155(c), which was the specific regulation you referenced, defines a
prohibition
against VFR operations under certain conditions in any airspace.


The question was, "Where does the 1000 come from?" The answer is FAR
91.155(c).



The issue at hand is the requirement in the ATC manual for ATC to "ensure
that weather conditions at the airport are VFR " as a condition to
issuing
a visual approach clearance. VFR conditions are defined in 91.155(a)
subject to an additional Class G permissive rule in 91.155(b) and
prohibitions against operations under certain conditions in (c) for all
airspace and (d) in B/C/D/E airspace.


Correct.



For VFR conditions to exist as required by 7110.65 7-4-3(b) in order to
clear an aircraft for the IFR operation under discussion, one must be able
to operate under VFR, including obeying cloud clearance rules.

That is not correct. The only IFR operation subject to VFR cloud clearance
requirements is VFR-on-top.

On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 15:52:29 -0600, "Stan Prevost"
wrote:

Yes, but ATC is bound by 7110.65, which in 7-4-3 says (without regard to
airspace class or surface areas)
b. Resolve potential conflicts with all other aircraft, advise an overtaking
aircraft of the distance to the preceding aircraft and speed difference, and
ensure that weather conditions at the airport are VFR or that the pilot has
been informed that weather is not available for the destination airport.
Upon pilot request, advise the pilot of the frequency to receive weather
information where AWOS/ASOS is available.


And you are perhaps surprised that the pilot guidance and ATC guidance are
not the same? :-)


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)