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#1
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Best modern jet fighter
F-15C. Unchallenged combat record.
How much combat has the SU-27/37 seen? Call me when they get some actual experience. Just FYI 2 Su 27's from Lipetsk (a Russian "Top gun" school) flew to Langley air force base where they competed against F-15's. If think it was in 1992. but what was surprising for some was the fact that the Sukhoi proved to be better in almost every aspect-there was only one test in which F-15 barely managed to beat Su 27...Pilot skill??? I agree with those who say that it plays important role, because it really does... Somehow, I doubt the Americans would send rookies to compete against Russian pilots, those who flew in these F-15's probably had lots of experience. I know that Sukhoi's were operated by Lipetsk school instructors... Anyway, Americans always relied on hi-tech electronics whereas Russians relied on super-maneuvreability. Heck, even the Pentagon stated that the new generation fighter should be capable of doing some of those maneuvres-in this case Pugachev's cobra...Su 27 the rest of it's "family" except the IB version are capable of doing it without trust vectoring (Su 37 can do even more becuse of trust vect.)-I would bet that the F-35 won't be able to do it even with trust vectoring. (And no, F-18 can't pull off a true Cobra)Why? Most of Russian fighter classes since 80's are aerodynamicly stable (Ok, some of them not on every axis)-they tend to rise by themselves where US fighters tend to fall and need good FBW systems-F 22 would be almost unflyable without one. When is a US fighter going to be able to do a Somersault? Some will say those are only things for airshows but in dogfight they could mean a difference... Not to mention the Su 27's EOS system which enables him a stealthy detection without the use of radar...some will say "So what, it covers only 15 km depending on the weather conditions". True, yet you could detect F-117 with it. Let's face it, stealth may seem a good idea but it's worth only in BVR fight, planes will always leave IR trails no matter how invisible they are for radar, not to mention there are ground systems which can detect stealth planes (they aren't based on doppler effect as radars are). Besides, I reckon the R-27 and R-77 sound familiar to you, both excellent in close and BVR fight (although I heard a rumor that one R-77 missile missed a drone target and hit a civilian airplane, yet this one is unconfirmed)...Super maneuvreability+R-27 (or some of it's equivalents)+off boresight capability could pose a serious threat even if an average pilot flew the plane...Btw...anyone remember that Le Bourget crash showing K-36 efficiency, I doubt Martin Baker seats are as good as the "Zvezda" (Ok, probably close, yet not as good)... All in all, I wouldn't be surprised to see Su kick ass of any US fighter...Just one thing for the end-the first air to air kill of the Gulf War is believed to be a US F-18 shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 on 17 January 1991. Yeah, the Israeli F-15's shot down 3 MiG-25's but MiG-25 was capable of doing damage and getting out of there fast-at 2,8 Mach US fighters could just watch in the Iraqi case (AIM 120's couldn't do the job)...What I was trying to say the whole time is that Russian fighters (I'm talkin about Suhkoi's) may or may not be so perfect, but you sure can't just underestimate them and start shouting US Air force has the best planes and pilots in the whole wide world...it hasn't-you all know how the excercise with India went on and I don't have to explain what it means... |
#2
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"Icarus" wrote in message ... F-15C. Unchallenged combat record. How much combat has the SU-27/37 seen? Call me when they get some actual experience. Just FYI 2 Su 27's from Lipetsk (a Russian "Top gun" school) flew to Langley air force base where they competed against F-15's. If think it was in 1992. but what was surprising for some was the fact that the Sukhoi proved to be better in almost every aspect-there was only one test in which F-15 barely managed to beat Su 27...Pilot skill??? Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the Su-27 again? Anyway, Americans always relied on hi-tech electronics whereas Russians relied on super-maneuvreability. Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes. Hmmmm. . . . When is a US fighter going to be able to do a Somersault? Some will say those are only things for airshows but in dogfight they could mean a difference... Please, detail the difference for us. Btw...anyone remember that Le Bourget crash showing K-36 efficiency, I doubt Martin Baker seats are as good as the "Zvezda" (Ok, probably close, yet not as good)... Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way - almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get shot down in droves. Just one thing for the end-the first air to air kill of the Gulf War is believed to be a US F-18 shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 on 17 January 1991. I note it wasn't an F-15. Yeah, the Israeli F-15's shot down 3 MiG-25's but MiG-25 was capable of doing damage and getting out of there fast-at 2,8 Mach I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s shoot down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . . . . . What I was trying to say the whole time is that Russian fighters (I'm talkin about Suhkoi's) may or may not be so perfect, but you sure can't just underestimate them and start shouting US Air force has the best planes and pilots in the whole wide world I never said that. I said the best modern fighter is the F-15, based on its unchallenged combat record. |
#3
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In article , Ragnar wrote:
Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way - almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get shot down in droves. Is it? How do you then explain why US ejection seats have become better while the aircraft have become better? Also think about how well it didn't work to not give pilots parachutes to prevent less then excellent performance? -- Urban Fredriksson http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/ There is always a yet unknown alternative. |
#4
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"Urban Fredriksson" wrote in message ... In article , Ragnar wrote: Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way - almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get shot down in droves. Is it? How do you then explain why US ejection seats have become better while the aircraft have become better? Don't get sarcasm, do we? |
#5
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ISTR the 27 and the 29 have gone against each other several times in
the Eritrea fighting some years ago - can't remember the score. Both types were flown by mercenary pilots so skill should be rather equal. FWIW I rate the 'cobra' as having very little combat value - unless one is tired of living. Walt BJ |
#6
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Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the Su-27
again? That was a dogfight simulation between Su 27 and F-15...if those had been real missiles and not a simulated ones F-15 would have ended up in flames. Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes. Hmmmm. . . . FYI a Yugoslavian MiG 29 shot down one F-15...so much for unchallenged record-nothing is perfect, it all depends on pilot...In 99% of cases, Soviet airplanes were never flown by Soviet/Russian pilots but by pilots who often lacked proper training...Not even the Soviet instructors could make a difference and get through to these pilots-as you probably know, Soviets gave their planes to every country with similar regime-that doesn't mean they were flown by proper people (and I won't even mention how poorly those planes were taken care of)...Different cultures give different pilots-NATO conducted research which showed that different countries had different accident percentages-it had a lot to do with pilot skill...Norwegian pilots are somewhat different than the US ones, same thing is for Russian/Chinese etc... Please, detail the difference for us. I'm sure you know how to use google, you'll probably find some mpeg's of Somersault and other maneuvres yourself... If not, here is a good link to start with: http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAP.html Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way - almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get shot down in droves. I guess safety and human lives mean nothing to you... I note it wasn't an F-15. I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s shoot down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . . FYI-MiG 25 was primarily a Soviet version of SR 71, it isn't a fighter...there were some versions that had been used as interceptors however it was MiG 31 that was built for that specific role, not the MiG 25... I had chosen to compare MiG 25 and F-15 (and they actually can't be compared-recon./fighter) only to show nothing is perfect and invunerable...you somehow missed the point...Once again, my bet is on the Su 27 family, not the MiG's. |
#7
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"Icarus" wrote in message ... Yes, a nice air show demonstration. Whats the COMBAT record of the Su-27 again? That was a dogfight simulation between Su 27 and F-15...if those had been real missiles and not a simulated ones F-15 would have ended up in flames. Supposition not based on actual facts. What is the Su-27s ACTUAL combat record? Yet the F-15 has a 120-0 kill record, mostly against Soviet airplanes. Hmmmm. . . . FYI a Yugoslavian MiG 29 shot down one F-15.. Cite? In 99% of cases, Soviet airplanes were never flown by Soviet/Russian pilots but by pilots who often lacked proper training.. Really? How did they not get proper training? They went to Soviet-designed schools, with Soviet instructors. Not even the Soviet instructors could make a difference You do know that this doesn't make your case. If the Soviet Instructors aren't capable of training, how can they be any good? Yes, very interesting that the Soviets designed ejection seats that way - almost as if they assumed from the beginning that their planes would get shot down in droves. I guess safety and human lives mean nothing to you...\ I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing. I note it wasn't an F-15. I see the F-15s shot down 3 MiG-25s. How many F-15s did the Mig-25s shoot down? Oh, whats that? ZERO, you say. Hmmmm . . FYI-MiG 25 was primarily a Soviet version of SR 71, Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again. it isn't a fighter. Its an interceptor, which is what the F-15 was also designed to be. Recce models of the 25 came AFTER. |
#8
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I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing.
Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again. I see you have studied at the John Tarver school of Usenet skills. John |
#9
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"John Mullen" wrote in message ... I guess you totally don't get sarcasm. Thanks for playing. Bzzzzz! Wrong answer. Try again. I see you have studied at the John Tarver school of Usenet skills. Awwwwww, did his little feelings get hurt with the truth? |
#10
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Ragnar wrote:
[Mig-25] Its an interceptor, which is what the F-15 was also designed to be. Recce models of the 25 came AFTER. Well yes, an interceptor. But designed to intercept heavy bombers and therefore for an entirely different role than the F-15, no? H. Schaefer |
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