Looking at an old Ercoupe today...

So three (of our original six) members are continuing down the road to
finding an old, LSA-compliant airplane. The other three dropped out
because they didn't like the notion of a "family membership" that would
allow multiple pilots on a single club membership. (Not surprisingly, those
were the three single or single-pilot family folks!)

The three remaining partners already own larger aircraft, and have similar
goals:

1. We want something cheap(er) and more fun to fly
2. We want something our kids/spouses can afford to fly
3. We want an LSA in case we lose our medicals.
4. We like grass-roots aviation. No glass panels or IFR -- just low, slow,
and fun.

One of our original members was an Ercoupe fanatic, which got us looking in
that direction. After exploring those old birds, we all found them to
be...cool. Compared to many "legacy LSAs" (I.E.: Taylorcraft, Champs,
etc.) the Ercoupe is more modern, with tricycle gear and metal
construction -- while at the same time (when compared to modern aircraft) it
is quaint and refreshingly simple.

So, we're bringing one into the shop today, to have a closer look-see. (One
of the partners is my A&P, a guy with 45 years of wrenching experience.)
Anyone care to weigh in on the Ercoupe? Here are the particulars:

- 1946 Model 416-C
- 85 HP
- 400 SMOH
- Out of annual for 1 year (the owner has another plane, and a very busy
work schedule; he's sort of lost interest in the plane)
- Flown 30 hours since 2000
- Sat for 15 years prior to 2000 (owned by current owner's uncle)
- All-metal wings (all ADs complied with)
- New upholstery/interior
- Luggage compartment enlargement STC
- New yokes
- New shock donuts
- New tires
- Many new instruments/new panel
- Garmin 295 comes with plane

The radios are...junk. For all intents and purposes, we're considering the
radios to be non-existent. There is a good, newly installed intercom.

Current owner says he's got $28K invested. He's talking $21K. We're
thinking (pending inspection) maybe it's worth $18K.

Any Ercoupe experts out there? Whuddya think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

"Jay Honeck" wrote

The three remaining partners already own larger aircraft, and have similar
goals:

1. We want something cheap(er) and more fun to fly
2. We want something our kids/spouses can afford to fly
3. We want an LSA in case we lose our medicals.
4. We like grass-roots aviation. No glass panels or IFR -- just low,
slow,
and fun.

You guys might want to look into flying sailplanes too. It's hard to beat
for the shear joy of being up in the air and making the most out of what
mother nature has in store for you on any particular day.

It can be very inexpensive - you can fly for hours on a $35 tow. It is
exciting and challenging, especially when you start to go out on cross
countries. And, the transition from power to glider is straightforward and
pretty easy really. No written and no medical required.

Ownership costs are low as well. I own a 38:1 glass ship and my most recent
annual was $200. There are no tiedown or hangar fees since you can take
your sailplane home with you in its trailer at the end of each day.

I had my own preconceived notions about what flying sailplanes was all about
for years, and once I actually tried it I found out I was totally wrong.

Of course, you can't use it for transportation or head out for your $500
hamburger like you can in a power plane. But, for recreational flying it's
hard to beat. I think my wife enjoys soaring above the countryside in a
sailplane more than she does flying power, even the Cub (but it's a close
second).

Anyway, food for thought.

Bruce

"BDS" wrote:
You guys might want to look into flying sailplanes too. It's hard to beat
for the shear joy of being up in the air and making the most out of what
mother nature has in store for you on any particular day.

It can be very inexpensive - you can fly for hours on a $35 tow.

That's *if* you own your own sailplane.
Where I flew, it was $35 for the tow (minimum), plus $X/hr for rental of
the sailplane.

It is
exciting and challenging, especially when you start to go out on cross
countries. And, the transition from power to glider is straightforward and
pretty easy really. No written and no medical required.

Ownership costs are low as well. I own a 38:1 glass ship and my most recent
annual was $200. There are no tiedown or hangar fees since you can take
your sailplane home with you in its trailer at the end of each day.

You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

And it should be mentioned that taking it home with you in the trailer
vs. having a tiedown/hangar means having help and time to take the wings
off and put them back on each time. I've watched this...they don't go
together as quickly as Lego.

I had my own preconceived notions about what flying sailplanes was all about
for years, and once I actually tried it I found out I was totally wrong.

Of course, you can't use it for transportation or head out for your $500
hamburger like you can in a power plane. But, for recreational flying it's
hard to beat. I think my wife enjoys soaring above the countryside in a
sailplane more than she does flying power, even the Cub (but it's a close
second).

Anyway, food for thought.

They are unique and wonderful, quiet, less manic than airplanes. But
there is a downside (depending on how you view it). You can't just go to
the airport, gas up your plane, take off and go from Point-A to Point-B.
You need a way to be launched (towplane/auto tow/winch), at least one or
two other people not going with you to help launch you, and if there
isn't any lift, you won't be going far.

I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
expensive very quickly.

Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

"Shirl" wrote

It can be very inexpensive - you can fly for hours on a $35 tow.

That's *if* you own your own sailplane.
Where I flew, it was $35 for the tow (minimum), plus $X/hr for rental of
the sailplane.

You're right, it depends on where you fly. I happen to own my sailplane,
but the club I'm in also owns 5 various single and 2-place ships and members
use them at no charge beyond annual dues. We also provide flight
instruction to club members at no charge. Dues in this club are $800 to
$1,300 a year depending on the type of membership you have.

You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

There are ships in this class with trailers for around $16k and up. Mine
was around $19k when I bought it a few years ago.

And it should be mentioned that taking it home with you in the trailer
vs. having a tiedown/hangar means having help and time to take the wings
off and put them back on each time. I've watched this...they don't go
together as quickly as Lego.

I made a one man rig for mine so that I can rig and de-rig it by myself in
about 30 minutes. Some days it takes 45 minutes and a few choice cuss
words.

They are unique and wonderful, quiet, less manic than airplanes. But
there is a downside (depending on how you view it). You can't just go to
the airport, gas up your plane, take off and go from Point-A to Point-B.
You need a way to be launched (towplane/auto tow/winch), at least one or
two other people not going with you to help launch you, and if there
isn't any lift, you won't be going far.

Yes, very true.

I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
expensive very quickly.

Yes, when you're depending on finding lift to stay up there are no
guarantees. However, you can and will increase the odds of your success
with experience and knowing when to launch and when not to. Still, there
are no guarantees since finding and successfully working lift is not as easy
as turning a key. But then, that's the fun of it!

Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

Hope you still get out to enjoy a glider flight once in awhile!

Bruce

Shirl:
Where I flew, it was $35 for the tow (minimum), plus $X/hr
for rental of the sailplane.

"BDS" wrote:
You're right, it depends on where you fly. I happen to own my sailplane,
but the club I'm in also owns 5 various single and 2-place ships and members
use them at no charge beyond annual dues. We also provide flight
instruction to club members at no charge. Dues in this club are $800 to
$1,300 a year depending on the type of membership you have.

I think more sailports operate as clubs now. The one I was at did not.
It was $35/tow (I think first 1000 feet?), plus so much per extra
thousand feet. Hourly sailplane rental was in addition to that. And we
did not get flight instruction at no charge -- it was $40/hr at the
time. NOTHING was free, nor did anyone expect it to be; but my point was
that it surely did add up fast unless you were lucky enough to get
something like 1.5 hrs from the first 1500-ft tow in a 1-26, which would
end up being under $60 total. But even on good days, it could take more
than one tow to get in a good flight.

You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

There are ships in this class with trailers for around $16k and up. Mine
was around $19k when I bought it a few years ago.

Okay...the glass ships I'd seen were in the $75K range, which to me
seems like a lot considering all the other stuff that is needed before
you even get in the air.

And it should be mentioned that taking it home with you in the trailer
vs. having a tiedown/hangar means having help and time to take the wings
off and put them back on each time. I've watched this...they don't go
together as quickly as Lego.

I made a one man rig for mine so that I can rig and de-rig it by myself in
about 30 minutes. Some days it takes 45 minutes and a few choice cuss
words.

:-) That's not bad. But it's still a consideration that people should
be aware of.

I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
expensive very quickly.

Yes, when you're depending on finding lift to stay up there are no
guarantees. However, you can and will increase the odds of your
success with experience and knowing when to launch and when not to.

Agreed. I was always amazed at how the "veterans" knew exactly when and
when NOT to go! I always wanted to fly in the morning, and they kept
telling me, "No, it's not 'puddin' yet!" (meaning it was too early in
the day to be "bubbling" up). Waiting an additional 20 minutes could
make all the difference in staying up for an hour or two or coming right
back down.

Still, there are no guarantees since finding and successfully
working lift is not as easy as turning a key. But then, that's
the fun of it!

I know! I agree. It's like a scavenger hunt, looking for something you
can't see, and you can't help but wear a huge smile when you find it! I
love it. It really is all about the enjoyment of flying, huh?

Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

Hope you still get out to enjoy a glider flight once in awhile!

Not as much as I'd like to. I'm a little spoiled by being able wake up
early and just go fly. Hard to stay motivated when you're out of the
habit of waiting around until 2:30 or 3:00 pm. But ... there's nothing
quite like those few seconds just after you release from the tow and it
gets so quiet and peaceful, being at 11,000 feet with the Vario still on
the rise, and ... no possibility of engine failure!
;-)

Shirl

On May 15, 11:54*am, Shirl wrote:

Not as much as I'd like to. I'm a little spoiled by being able wake up
early and just go fly. Hard to stay motivated when you're out of the
habit of waiting around until 2:30 or 3:00 pm. But ... there's nothing
quite like those few seconds just after you release from the tow and it
gets so quiet and peaceful, being at 11,000 feet with the Vario still on
the rise, and ... no possibility of engine failure!

Another big rush (And one that these stupid flying magazine "Glider ad
on " articles always miss), is flying XC in a sailplane. There is
nothing like being a hundred miles out in the early evening and its
just you, your ship, and the atmosphere. With everything else I have
done in aviation, XC Soaring is one of the most rewarding. My power
plane gathers dust during the soaring season. I would pay twice as
much as I do now to pursue the sport and it would still be worth it.
F. Baum
;-)

Shirl

snip
That's *if* you own your own sailplane.
Where I flew, it was $35 for the tow (minimum), plus $X/hr for rental of
the sailplane.

You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

$11,000 for my 38-1 Sailplane with trailer and Parachute.


And it should be mentioned that taking it home with you in the trailer
vs. having a tiedown/hangar means having help and time to take the wings
off and put them back on each time. I've watched this...they don't go
together as quickly as Lego.


There are some that go together that way. Mostly that has to do with
the owners not putting the time and effort into making the trailers
work well.

5 of the 7 gliders I fly with can be assembled and disassembled in
less the 20 minutes. Less time that it will take you to do a good
preflight and fuel your power plane. The require 2 people for only
about 4 minutes to attach the wings the rest can be done by the pilot.

One of my flights this year, I left my house at 1:00pm drove 10
minutes to the airport with my glider in the trailer, I assembled my
glider, launched and was off tow and thermalling at 1:45. for what
turned out to be a 4 hour flight.


They are unique and wonderful, quiet, less manic than airplanes. But
there is a downside (depending on how you view it). You can't just go to
the airport, gas up your plane, take off and go from Point-A to Point-B.
You need a way to be launched (towplane/auto tow/winch), at least one or
two other people not going with you to help launch you, and if there
isn't any lift, you won't be going far.

Fair enough. But again with the right equipment only a tow pilot is
required.


I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
expensive very quickly.

Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

As with nearly any sport you can pay as much as you want. Getting a
glider license can be expensive but if you shop around and are
flexiable it can be inexpensive especially for a transition from
power. I had a freind transition about two years ago for less than
$800.

My annual expenses for about 50 hours of glider time per year have
been less than $1000.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
HP16T

Shirl:
I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift). When
learning and doing several "pattern tows" in a row, it can get downright
expensive very quickly.

Shirl (licensed in gliders before airplanes)

Brian:
As with nearly any sport you can pay as much as you want. Getting a
glider license can be expensive but if you shop around and are
flexiable it can be inexpensive especially for a transition from
power. I had a freind transition about two years ago for less than
$800.

My annual expenses for about 50 hours of glider time per year have
been less than $1000.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
HP16T

I'm not trying to paint gliders negatively -- I agree that they're
great, and they *do* enhance power flying. But realistically, not
everyone has even ONE sailport within a reasonable drive from their home
with a vehicle, trailer and today's gasoline prices, let alone being
able to "shop around", and even living in Arizona, 4-hour flights are
possible a few months of the year, but they still don't happen with
*every* launch -- sometimes takes at least a couple of launches to
actually go soaring, and if you pay a minimum of $35/tow, that's at
least $70 for two launches and you may or may not find enough lift to go
soaring for an hour or two. Again, not knocking it at all...just saying
from what I saw at the facilities here (3 gliderports, each about an
hour drive in different directions), 50 hours for $1000 would definitely
have been the exception to the rule.

I'm not trying to paint gliders negatively -- I agree that they're
great, and they *do* enhance power flying. But realistically, not
everyone has even ONE sailport within a reasonable drive from their home

That's been our dilemma. We wanted Joe (and now Becca) to do gliders at age
14, in (relatively) nearby Muscatine, IA, which has a small glider
operation -- but getting there is a 45 minute drive, minimum. We simply
don't have 90 minutes in our day to waste sitting in a car.

Mary and I experienced soaring over in Ames, IA, and had a wonderful time --
but that's so far away that we had to fly to get there. Kinda makes soaring
less-than-cost-effective...

No, buying an old Ercoupe is a great solution for affordable LSA flying.
Fuel efficient, burns car gas, has a canopy you can hang your arm out of in
flight. Low, slow, and we can park in the "Antique/Classic" section, if we
want to...

We'll see how negotiations go. Here are some pix we took of it in April, if
you're interested: http://www.alexisparkinn.com/ercoupe_n2572h.htm

It would sure be pretty if the guy hadn't let bird crap sit on the bare
aluminum for so many years. Now, the only solution is to paint it...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On 2008-05-15, Shirl wrote:
You didn't say how much you paid for the 38:1 glass ship!

And to have fun in gliders it doesn't have to be a 38:1 glass ship. I
imagine Iowa has many great thermic days, where going cross country in
an old wood and fabric Ka-8 (which will cost around 4 grand for one in
mint condition, much less for an average one) is not all that difficult
and a lot of fun.

I just did my silver duration in a 38:1 glass ship though, in Scotland
of all places, in thermal lift - further north than the entire
continental US, and much of populated Canada. (And the 38:1 glass ships
don't have to cost the earth - I did my silver duration, which is 5
hours soaring flight, in an ASW-19 that's 30 years old).

Some pictures:
http://www.alioth.net/pics/Aboyne-Ma...s/Image25.html
http://www.alioth.net/pics/Aboyne-Ma...s/Image31.html

The glider certainly doesn't look 30 years old!

I wouldn't describe it as "very inexpensive", either! It can go either
way. Sometimes, "inexpensive" is hardly the case, with paying for the
tow and the minimum hourly rental for what ends up being a 20-minute
flight (approximate duration of a tow to 3000 feet with no lift).

But inexpensive compared to power planes. My 5 hour flight was much
cheaper (in a club ship, not one I owned) than flying 5 hours in a
relatively modest powered aircraft. If you live somewhere with lots of
soarable days, it's a very worthy consideration if you want an aircraft
if your destination is "up", or your destination is a cross country
flight just for the sake of making one. If you already know how to fly
then it doesn't take long to get a glider private. And it *really*
teaches you about weather and airmass - many 25 hour glider pilots have
better appreciation of weather and airmass than 2500 hour power
pilots...and if you're also a power pilot, this translates to better
skill as a power pilot.

--
From the sunny Isle of Man.
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