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SAFETY ALERT



 
 
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  #21  
Old August 23rd 11, 05:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bill D
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 746
Default SAFETY ALERT

On Aug 22, 9:33*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 8/22/2011 7:48 PM, Cookie wrote:









On Aug 22, 10:02 pm, Eric *wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:50 PM, Cookie wrote:


- Show quoted text -


Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are
dangerous?


So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, *FAA,
NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that".


It's not obvious to me the low pass was the cause of the Idaho fatality,
and given the cursory investigation the FAA can afford, we might never
know. Was it


* a medical problem
* a mechanical failure
* hypoxia
* malfunctioning airspeed indicator
* pilot incompetence with pattern turns


I'm sure others can think of more factors that would have led to
spinning in, even if the pilot did not do a low pass beforehand. And
that is part of the problem with the SSA coming out with "generic"
advice immediately after an accident: it may completely miss the cause,
and lull us into an unfounded complacency.


Cookie and others suggest "Don't do low passes", but that's generic
advice not yet supported by this accident. That advice can stand on it's
own without this accident. We should still strive to understand this
accident, though it will be difficult, instead of assuming it was just a
botched low pass.


We can't do a full investigation ourselves, but we can at least consider
those factors I mentioned. Can we rule out a medical problem? Will
someone inspect the glider for mechanical malfunction? Did he have
oxygen left in the tank, a functioning delivery system, an oximeter,
experience in using oxygen? Is the airspeed system potentially
over-reading? Could he always fly a good pattern, or did he
over-rudder/under-bank at times? Was his glider (HIS glider, not BG's in
general) well tested and benign (no surprises) in it's handling?


There are many ways for things to go wrong, and even after 35 years of
"trying", I still - more infrequently now - discover new ones.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz


Eric,


I am not trying to say what actually happened in any of these recent
accidents...we are just talking about accidents in general..that there
are certain categories of accident that seem to repete...and how to
help prevent them.


* a medical problem
* a mechanical failure
* hypoxia
* malfunctioning airspeed indicator
* pilot incompetence with pattern turns


You give 5 possible potential "causes" for accidents......we can
easily address each...and figure out how each of us could improve our
odds, or prevent the accidents caused by them.


I'm going to start with "malfunctioning airspeed indicator"........A
glider pilot should be able to fly safely without reference to an
airspeed indicator.......I can think of no accident where the cause
should be a malfunctioning airspeed indicator..airspeed indicator does
not seem to be a factor in any of the recent accidents.


The pilot flies through virga; water enters the airspeed system, causing
it to over-read as he pulls up from his low pass. As he waits for the
airspeed to bleed off to pattern speed while pointed up at 20 degrees,
the glider stalls and spins. This was my first thought, because I
recently had a virga induced airspeed error - my very first, despite
flying through virga and rain several times a year over 35 years of
glider flying. It took me at least a minute to realize I had a problem,
and even longer to decide it was water from the virga.



Mechanical failure is very very rare..(unless caused by improper
flying)...annual inspections, 100 hour inspections and preflight
inspections insure us against mechanical failure.....the onus falls on
the PIC to insure the aircraft is airworthy. *I don't see where
mechanical failure enters into any of the recent accidents.


A control rod jams when you try to put the nose down, stall, spin - It's
not something even a person watching on the ground would see, much less
trying to dissect the cause remotely after the fact. I had a control rod
break in the club Blanik that was not inspectable by the PIC. We got
down safely. If we'd spun in, would inspecting the wreck have found
that? Maybe, maybe not. It happens.



Hypoxia is a good one.........we all should have received some degree
of training about hypoxia, its symptoms, and effects.
Many of us fly where this is seldon a concern..others use O2 on a
regular basis and better be proficient on this topic.
Again...don't see this relating to any of the recent accidents...


King Mountain Glider Park (the Idaho fatality location) is at 5500';
cloud base on a good day can be 20,000'; 16,000' to 18,000' is normal
for August. We don't know how high he was or for how long, how well his
oxygen system worked, what his pulmonary condition was, and if he
monitored it.



Medical problems.....we supposedly "self certify" and are required to
not fly during peroids of medical defeciency...does everybody do this?


We're not always aware of our medical deficiencies, or may misjudge
their effect.



Lastly pilot incompetence...........BINGO! * * That's the one! * *I
see this in accident after accident!


But it shouldn't become a prejudice, or we won't learn from an accident.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)


Eric, I would think if an airspeed indicator fails because the pitot
is plugged the pilot would know it long before deciding to try a low
pass. Now, flying a low pass with a known-bad ASI is really dumb. I
suspect if the pilot thought anything whatever was wrong with the
glider or himself, he wouldn't have tried the pass.

We know the low pass happened - anything else is speculation. That
pretty much leaves pilot error as the top suspect for now.

Low passes in a BG-12 are certainly possible to do safely - I used to
watch Ross and Kenny do some spectacular ones. However any well
trained pilot has to know it is a maneuver with very low safety
margins.

I remember thinking I wanted to do one. Just going for it seemed dumb
so I practiced at a safe altitude to see how much height I would
gain. With the glider I had, 300 feet was about the max which seemed
to leave no margin at all. I gave up the idea.
  #22  
Old August 23rd 11, 06:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default SAFETY ALERT

On 8/22/2011 9:11 PM, Bill D wrote:


Eric, I would think if an airspeed indicator fails because the pitot
is plugged the pilot would know it long before deciding to try a low
pass.


Maybe, unless he flew through the virga or rain shortly before landing.
I've done that a number of times. My problem occurred at least 10
minutes after flying through the virga.

Now, flying a low pass with a known-bad ASI is really dumb. I
suspect if the pilot thought anything whatever was wrong with the
glider or himself, he wouldn't have tried the pass.


I agree.

We know the low pass happened - anything else is speculation. That
pretty much leaves pilot error as the top suspect for now.


One possibility: the water lies spread out in a horizontal tube in
normal fight, but pulling up lets it slide back to a bend, and Ta-da,
the pitot is now blocked. I think this water might be hard to discover
after the wreckage is moved and lies around for several days.


Low passes in a BG-12 are certainly possible to do safely - I used to
watch Ross and Kenny do some spectacular ones. However any well
trained pilot has to know it is a maneuver with very low safety
margins.

I remember thinking I wanted to do one. Just going for it seemed dumb
so I practiced at a safe altitude to see how much height I would
gain. With the glider I had, 300 feet was about the max which seemed
to leave no margin at all. I gave up the idea.


Now I'm curious - what glider and what initial airspeed did you use?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz
  #23  
Old August 23rd 11, 10:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kevin anderson
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default SAFETY ALERT

Another real possibility not mentioned is dehydration. Nice high
speed pass, pull, pull, pull, with positive g load, works fine if you
are hydrated, if not then you can drop your blood pressure and grey
out or pass out.

Drink, drink, drink.....

Kevin
192
92
  #24  
Old August 23rd 11, 10:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default SAFETY ALERT

On 8/22/2011 10:47 PM, Bill D wrote:
On Aug 22, 7:59 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 8/21/2011 4:15 PM, wrote:

Personally I want the SSA lobbying against rules not making up new
ones or reminding me of old ones. When advocacy organizations become
governing/safetycratic they are ruined, worse than useless. Let the
SSA keep the gov't at bay, pilots, clubs, and insurance companies can
sort the safety standards.


I don't see a whole lot of lobbying going on either. For whatever
reason, there seems to be ZERO interest at the SSA to involve new people
in the organization who have new ideas and are volunteering to help out.

Another example of a HUGE problem.

--
Mike Schumann


I have to strongly disagree on all points. The SSA welcomes
volunteers - there just aren't many of them.

The SSA has successfully lobbied for numerous FAR changes - expanding
the use of tow pilots with a private rating is just the most recent.
Before that there was the extension of parachute repack to 180 days.
The SSA cares very much about what is happening to members.

Bill Daniels
SSA Growth and Development Committee Chairman.


My personal experience differs. Feel free to call me if you would like
to discuss.

--
Mike Schumann
  #25  
Old August 23rd 11, 10:44 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default SAFETY ALERT

On 8/22/2011 9:32 PM, Cookie wrote:
On Aug 22, 10:04 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 7:50 PM, Cookie wrote:





On Aug 22, 8:33 pm, wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:19 pm, wrote:


On Aug 22, 9:44 am, JJ wrote:


OK Cookie, you don't like my Safety Alert idea. What actions would you
take to counter the recent rash of soaring accidents?
JJ


Well I can't counter the recent rash of accidents because they have
already happened......unless I get a time machine.


But I can point out actions to prevent pilots form repeting those
errors. Most pilots are already doing preventitive measures, which is
simply a part of being a pilot and taking responsibility.


So lets take the recent incidents one by one, starting with the "low
pass" incident.


Solution: Don't do low passes!


JJ, that is the short answer and sums it up....and insures 100%
accident free due to low passes.....


If you don't understand this answer....I can give you the long version
if you wish. Or we can move on the another incident...


Cookie


Cookie, isn't this exactly what JJ was suggesting?? Reminding people
the dangers of low pass so they will avoid doing this?
Same goes for the rudder signal, low rope break etc. Remind people the
risks and consequences so hopefully someone else will avoid the same
mistake. There are still many pilots out there who live under a rock
and believe that soaring is safer than driving to the airport.
The SSF and the rest of us should discuss accidents so we all try to
learn something and remind ourself of the many ways we can kill
ourself.


Ramy- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are
dangerous?


So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, FAA,
NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that".


I mean really, we are supposedly trained, experienced pilots..with
some degree of intellegence and common sense.


Cookie


Obviously some us are not properly trained or don't have a certain
degree of intelligence or common sense. Some of these people might see
the light with a timely reminder. Many won't.

Also some fellow club members might wake up to the fact that one of
these days one of these stunts is going to involve an innocent
bystander. A reminder might motivate them to speak up and establish
some local common sense.

It might not help, but how can reminding people of the obvious hurt?

--
Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Mike,

If there are that many stupid people out there flying (and I am
starting to think there are)..accident rates will not get better. I
think statistics show that accident rates for glider have been fairly
constant in the long run, with some good years and some bad years.

I "remind" myself...every time I fly, and even when I'm not flying.

If others need reminding, of the blatently obvious...OK remind them.

But my objection is to the knee jerk reaction to a fatality, and then
placing the blame other then where it belongs....

"If only the SSA would have released a safety bulletin then joe pilot
would not be dead"

Every club I know of has a "safety officer"...every club has "safety
meetings"...every club I know of has a "safety' section at the club
meetings....every instructor I know has a #1 concern for
safety...every gliding textbook I have ever read deals with safety to
some degree....every flight review is centered on safety....every
field check out is safety oriented....every prospective new club
member is examined as to safety....the SAA has published a safety
column as long as I can remember....NTSB publishes accident
reports...any number of pilot publications have an accident report
section and numerous safety articles....numerous books have been
published dealing specifically with soaring safety and accident
prevention......etc.

OK, so now we need "safety alerts"...go for it ...you're right it
couldn't hurt..........but will it address the problem? I dunno!

Cookie





You need to get around more. Every soaring club does NOT have a safety
officer. Every club does NOT have safety meetings.......

If you have club members who are not getting drilled with safety
messages daily by there fellow local members, wouldn't it be helpful for
them to get some regular input from the SSA?

If these safety reminders are completely ineffective, why is the FAA
putting so much effort into their wings program and other e-mail alerts?

--
Mike Schumann
  #26  
Old August 23rd 11, 11:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cookie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default SAFETY ALERT

On Aug 23, 12:11*am, Bill D wrote:
On Aug 22, 9:33*pm, Eric Greenwell wrote:





On 8/22/2011 7:48 PM, Cookie wrote:


On Aug 22, 10:02 pm, Eric *wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:50 PM, Cookie wrote:


- Show quoted text -


Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are
dangerous?


So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, *FAA,
NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that".


It's not obvious to me the low pass was the cause of the Idaho fatality,
and given the cursory investigation the FAA can afford, we might never
know. Was it


* a medical problem
* a mechanical failure
* hypoxia
* malfunctioning airspeed indicator
* pilot incompetence with pattern turns


I'm sure others can think of more factors that would have led to
spinning in, even if the pilot did not do a low pass beforehand. And
that is part of the problem with the SSA coming out with "generic"
advice immediately after an accident: it may completely miss the cause,
and lull us into an unfounded complacency.


Cookie and others suggest "Don't do low passes", but that's generic
advice not yet supported by this accident. That advice can stand on it's
own without this accident. We should still strive to understand this
accident, though it will be difficult, instead of assuming it was just a
botched low pass.


We can't do a full investigation ourselves, but we can at least consider
those factors I mentioned. Can we rule out a medical problem? Will
someone inspect the glider for mechanical malfunction? Did he have
oxygen left in the tank, a functioning delivery system, an oximeter,
experience in using oxygen? Is the airspeed system potentially
over-reading? Could he always fly a good pattern, or did he
over-rudder/under-bank at times? Was his glider (HIS glider, not BG's in
general) well tested and benign (no surprises) in it's handling?


There are many ways for things to go wrong, and even after 35 years of
"trying", I still - more infrequently now - discover new ones.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz


Eric,


I am not trying to say what actually happened in any of these recent
accidents...we are just talking about accidents in general..that there
are certain categories of accident that seem to repete...and how to
help prevent them.


* a medical problem
* a mechanical failure
* hypoxia
* malfunctioning airspeed indicator
* pilot incompetence with pattern turns


You give 5 possible potential "causes" for accidents......we can
easily address each...and figure out how each of us could improve our
odds, or prevent the accidents caused by them.


I'm going to start with "malfunctioning airspeed indicator"........A
glider pilot should be able to fly safely without reference to an
airspeed indicator.......I can think of no accident where the cause
should be a malfunctioning airspeed indicator..airspeed indicator does
not seem to be a factor in any of the recent accidents.


The pilot flies through virga; water enters the airspeed system, causing
it to over-read as he pulls up from his low pass. As he waits for the
airspeed to bleed off to pattern speed while pointed up at 20 degrees,
the glider stalls and spins. This was my first thought, because I
recently had a virga induced airspeed error - my very first, despite
flying through virga and rain several times a year over 35 years of
glider flying. It took me at least a minute to realize I had a problem,
and even longer to decide it was water from the virga.


Mechanical failure is very very rare..(unless caused by improper
flying)...annual inspections, 100 hour inspections and preflight
inspections insure us against mechanical failure.....the onus falls on
the PIC to insure the aircraft is airworthy. *I don't see where
mechanical failure enters into any of the recent accidents.


A control rod jams when you try to put the nose down, stall, spin - It's
not something even a person watching on the ground would see, much less
trying to dissect the cause remotely after the fact. I had a control rod
break in the club Blanik that was not inspectable by the PIC. We got
down safely. If we'd spun in, would inspecting the wreck have found
that? Maybe, maybe not. It happens.


Hypoxia is a good one.........we all should have received some degree
of training about hypoxia, its symptoms, and effects.
Many of us fly where this is seldon a concern..others use O2 on a
regular basis and better be proficient on this topic.
Again...don't see this relating to any of the recent accidents...


King Mountain Glider Park (the Idaho fatality location) is at 5500';
cloud base on a good day can be 20,000'; 16,000' to 18,000' is normal
for August. We don't know how high he was or for how long, how well his
oxygen system worked, what his pulmonary condition was, and if he
monitored it.


Medical problems.....we supposedly "self certify" and are required to
not fly during peroids of medical defeciency...does everybody do this?


We're not always aware of our medical deficiencies, or may misjudge
their effect.


Lastly pilot incompetence...........BINGO! * * That's the one! * *I
see this in accident after accident!


But it shouldn't become a prejudice, or we won't learn from an accident..


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)


Eric, I would think if an airspeed indicator fails because the pitot
is plugged the pilot would know it long before deciding to try a low
pass. * Now, flying a low pass with a known-bad ASI is really dumb. *I
suspect if the pilot thought anything whatever was wrong with the
glider or himself, he wouldn't have tried the pass.

We know the low pass happened - anything else is speculation. *That
pretty much leaves pilot error as the top suspect for now.

Low passes in a BG-12 are certainly possible to do safely - I used to
watch Ross and Kenny do some spectacular ones. *However any well
trained pilot has to know it is a maneuver with very low safety
margins.

I remember thinking I wanted to do one. *Just going for it seemed dumb
so I practiced at a safe altitude to see how much height I would
gain. *With the glider I had, 300 feet was about the max which seemed
to leave no margin at all. *I gave up the idea.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


And inceased your safety greatly and reduded glider accident
rates....and make a good example for others....and exibited good pilot
skills....and common sense!


Cookie
  #27  
Old August 23rd 11, 11:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cookie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default SAFETY ALERT

On Aug 23, 5:29*am, kevin anderson wrote:
Another real possibility not mentioned is dehydration. *Nice high
speed pass, pull, pull, pull, *with positive g load, works fine if you
are hydrated, if not then you can drop your blood pressure and grey
out or pass out.

Drink, drink, drink.....

Kevin
192
* 92


More shifting of the blame........again and again...shift the blame!


Cookie

  #28  
Old August 23rd 11, 12:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Cookie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 152
Default SAFETY ALERT

On Aug 23, 5:44*am, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 9:32 PM, Cookie wrote:





On Aug 22, 10:04 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 7:50 PM, Cookie wrote:


On Aug 22, 8:33 pm, * *wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:19 pm, * *wrote:


On Aug 22, 9:44 am, JJ * *wrote:


OK Cookie, you don't like my Safety Alert idea. What actions would you
take to counter the recent rash of soaring accidents?
JJ


Well I can't counter the recent rash of accidents because they have
already happened......unless I get a time machine.


But I can point out actions to prevent pilots form repeting those
errors. *Most pilots are already doing preventitive measures, which is
simply a part of being a pilot and taking responsibility.


So lets take the recent incidents one by one, starting with the "low
pass" incident.


Solution: Don't do low passes!


JJ, that is the short answer and sums it up....and insures 100%
accident free due to low passes.....


If you don't understand this answer....I can give you the long version
if you wish. *Or we *can move on the another incident...


Cookie


Cookie, isn't this exactly what JJ was suggesting?? Reminding people
the dangers of low pass so they will avoid doing this?
Same goes for the rudder signal, low rope break etc. Remind people the
risks and consequences so hopefully someone else will avoid the same
mistake. There are still many pilots out there who live under a rock
and believe that soaring is safer than driving to the airport.
The SSF and the rest of us should discuss accidents so we all try to
learn something and remind ourself of the many ways we can kill
ourself.


Ramy- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are
dangerous?


So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, *FAA,
NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that".


I mean really, we are supposedly trained, experienced pilots..with
some degree of intellegence and common sense.


Cookie


Obviously some us are not properly trained or don't have a certain
degree of intelligence or common sense. *Some of these people might see
the light with a timely reminder. *Many won't.


Also some fellow club members might wake up to the fact that one of
these days one of these stunts is going to involve an innocent
bystander. *A reminder might motivate them to speak up and establish
some local common sense.


It might not help, but how can reminding people of the obvious hurt?


--
Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Mike,


If there are that many stupid people out there flying (and I am
starting to think there are)..accident rates will not get better. *I
think statistics show that accident rates for glider have been fairly
constant in the long run, with some good years and some bad years.


I "remind" myself...every time I fly, and even when I'm not flying.


If others need reminding, of the blatently obvious...OK remind them.


But my objection is to the knee jerk reaction to a fatality, and then
placing the blame other then where it belongs....


"If only the SSA would have released a safety bulletin then joe pilot
would not be dead"


Every club I know of has a "safety officer"...every club has "safety
meetings"...every club I know of has a "safety' section at the club
meetings....every instructor I know has a #1 concern for
safety...every gliding textbook I have ever read deals with safety to
some degree....every flight review is centered on safety....every
field check out is safety oriented....every prospective new club
member is examined as to safety....the SAA has published a safety
column as long as I can remember....NTSB publishes accident
reports...any number of pilot publications have an accident report
section and numerous safety articles....numerous books have been
published dealing specifically with soaring safety and accident
prevention......etc.


OK, *so *now we need "safety alerts"...go for it ...you're right it
couldn't hurt..........but will it address the problem? *I dunno!


Cookie


You need to get around more. *Every soaring club does NOT have a safety
officer. *Every club does NOT have safety meetings.......

If you have club members who are not getting drilled with safety
messages daily by there fellow local members, wouldn't it be helpful for
them to get some regular input from the SSA?

If these safety reminders are completely ineffective, why is the FAA
putting so much effort into their wings program and other e-mail alerts?

--
Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Mike....

If the safety information is not available from one or two of the
sources I mentioned...it is available from the other 10 or so I
mentioned and the other 20 or so I did not mention....

Any reasonable pilot can get all the safety infromation he cares to
get.....

Any idiot can put he blinders on and be ignorant, no natter how many
"safety alerts" you post, or publish or mail to them...

But hey...if you think we need a "safety alert system" whenever there
a rash of accidents....go for it....

Cookie
  #29  
Old August 23rd 11, 02:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JJ Sinclair[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 359
Default SAFETY ALERT


More shifting of the blame........again and again...shift the blame!

Cookie


You just don't get it, do you Cookie................We're not talking
about BLAME, we're talking about PREVENTION
JJ
  #30  
Old August 23rd 11, 05:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mike Schumann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default SAFETY ALERT

On 8/23/2011 6:00 AM, Cookie wrote:
On Aug 23, 5:44 am, Mike
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 9:32 PM, Cookie wrote:





On Aug 22, 10:04 pm, Mike
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 7:50 PM, Cookie wrote:


On Aug 22, 8:33 pm, wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:19 pm, wrote:


On Aug 22, 9:44 am, JJ wrote:


OK Cookie, you don't like my Safety Alert idea. What actions would you
take to counter the recent rash of soaring accidents?
JJ


Well I can't counter the recent rash of accidents because they have
already happened......unless I get a time machine.


But I can point out actions to prevent pilots form repeting those
errors. Most pilots are already doing preventitive measures, which is
simply a part of being a pilot and taking responsibility.


So lets take the recent incidents one by one, starting with the "low
pass" incident.


Solution: Don't do low passes!


JJ, that is the short answer and sums it up....and insures 100%
accident free due to low passes.....


If you don't understand this answer....I can give you the long version
if you wish. Or we can move on the another incident...


Cookie


Cookie, isn't this exactly what JJ was suggesting?? Reminding people
the dangers of low pass so they will avoid doing this?
Same goes for the rudder signal, low rope break etc. Remind people the
risks and consequences so hopefully someone else will avoid the same
mistake. There are still many pilots out there who live under a rock
and believe that soaring is safer than driving to the airport.
The SSF and the rest of us should discuss accidents so we all try to
learn something and remind ourself of the many ways we can kill
ourself.


Ramy- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Ramy do you really need "reminding" to realize that low passes are
dangerous?


So a guy gets killed doing a low pass....Do you need the SSA, FAA,
NTSB, and whoever else to tell you "Don't do that".


I mean really, we are supposedly trained, experienced pilots..with
some degree of intellegence and common sense.


Cookie


Obviously some us are not properly trained or don't have a certain
degree of intelligence or common sense. Some of these people might see
the light with a timely reminder. Many won't.


Also some fellow club members might wake up to the fact that one of
these days one of these stunts is going to involve an innocent
bystander. A reminder might motivate them to speak up and establish
some local common sense.


It might not help, but how can reminding people of the obvious hurt?


--
Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Mike,


If there are that many stupid people out there flying (and I am
starting to think there are)..accident rates will not get better. I
think statistics show that accident rates for glider have been fairly
constant in the long run, with some good years and some bad years.


I "remind" myself...every time I fly, and even when I'm not flying.


If others need reminding, of the blatently obvious...OK remind them.


But my objection is to the knee jerk reaction to a fatality, and then
placing the blame other then where it belongs....


"If only the SSA would have released a safety bulletin then joe pilot
would not be dead"


Every club I know of has a "safety officer"...every club has "safety
meetings"...every club I know of has a "safety' section at the club
meetings....every instructor I know has a #1 concern for
safety...every gliding textbook I have ever read deals with safety to
some degree....every flight review is centered on safety....every
field check out is safety oriented....every prospective new club
member is examined as to safety....the SAA has published a safety
column as long as I can remember....NTSB publishes accident
reports...any number of pilot publications have an accident report
section and numerous safety articles....numerous books have been
published dealing specifically with soaring safety and accident
prevention......etc.


OK, so now we need "safety alerts"...go for it ...you're right it
couldn't hurt..........but will it address the problem? I dunno!


Cookie


You need to get around more. Every soaring club does NOT have a safety
officer. Every club does NOT have safety meetings.......

If you have club members who are not getting drilled with safety
messages daily by there fellow local members, wouldn't it be helpful for
them to get some regular input from the SSA?

If these safety reminders are completely ineffective, why is the FAA
putting so much effort into their wings program and other e-mail alerts?

--
Mike Schumann- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Mike....

If the safety information is not available from one or two of the
sources I mentioned...it is available from the other 10 or so I
mentioned and the other 20 or so I did not mention....

Any reasonable pilot can get all the safety infromation he cares to
get.....

Any idiot can put he blinders on and be ignorant, no natter how many
"safety alerts" you post, or publish or mail to them...

But hey...if you think we need a "safety alert system" whenever there
a rash of accidents....go for it....

Cookie


You are right. Anyone who is interested in safety can get the necessary
information from multiple sources. These guys are not the problem.

The pilots who are the problem are the ones who aren't looking for
safety information and don't have anyone they interact with on a regular
basis who are pushing a safety message.

--
Mike Schumann
 




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