IDAHO FATALITY

On Aug 25, 11:42*am, "kirk.stant" wrote:
How about that, zoomie fans?!? And good on whomever the controlling entity
mandating this, in this setting, is.

Thanks for the (usable!) info, GC.

Regards,
Bob W.

I think it's a great idea.

Along with more training on gaggle flying, XC flying, etc.

Of course, that would require that US instructors actually have some
gaggle, XC, high performance experience and training themselves.

Unfortunately, that is somewhat rare in the US (with many notable
exceptions, of course).

How about mandating Silver badge as a prereq for a CFIG rating - kinda
like a CFI has to have an instrument rating...

Kirk
66

That is/was a UK requirement, and a good one in my opinion.

Frank Whiteley

On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 11:25:34 -0700, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I remember the incident, but did not know the photographer was in
contact with the glider, or that it was at high speed.

That it was at high speed was well-known and reported, but not the 'Radio
contact' story: this is the first I've heard of it.

BTW: mentioning this incident is mis-attributed. I didn't mention it, but
its only the very low passes, as in below hedge/head height, that have
been banned, not high speed finishes above 50-100 feet.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Aug 23, 9:58*pm, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Aug 21, 8:54*am, Ramy wrote:





On Aug 21, 6:23*am, BobW wrote:

On 8/20/2011 7:02 PM, Walt Connelly wrote:

Frank Whiteley;781006 Wrote:
On Aug 20, 8:41*am, Bob wrote:-
I heard there was a stall spin on base to final fatality at the recent
Idhao flying get-together. *Anyone got any specifics? *Tough summer
for gliding!-

BG-12b in FAA Friday Preliminary reports.

IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 559Y * * * *Make/Model: EXP * * * Description: EXP- BRIEGLEB
BG-12B GLIDER
Date: 08/18/2011 * * Time: 2243

Event Type: Accident * Highest Injury: Fatal * * Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Substantial

LOCATION
City: MOORE * State: ID * Country: US

DESCRIPTION
A GLIDER, AIRCRAFT CRASHED UNDER UNKNOWN CIRCUMSTANCES, THE 1-PERSON
ONBOARD FATALLY INJURED, MOORE, ID

INJURY DATA * * *Total Fatal: * 1
# Crew: * 1 * * Fat: * 1 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Pass: * 0 * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:
# Grnd: * * * * Fat: * 0 * * Ser: * 0 * * Min: * 0
Unk:

WEATHER: 182253Z 21014G22KT10SM CLR 30/M01 A3003

OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown * * *Phase: Unknown * * *Operation: OTHER

FAA FSDO: BOISE, ID *(NM11) * * * * * * * * * * Entry date: 08/19/2011

Having read the final report on an accident where I fly I no longer have
much faith in the outcome of these investigations.

Nor - I've little doubt - do most interested readers of the NTSB database. My
working conclusion is, historically the vast majority of NTSB glider
investigations state the obvious, while lacking any ability to place the
obvious into any sensible context. Donning my Great Karnak hat, this
fatality's Probable Cause will likely read: Failure to maintain airspeed and
control for unknown reasons.

And at that, my supposition may well err on the wide of 'too much
context'...time will tell.

However, savvy NTSB-database-reading glider pilots can still make their own
inferential, context-based conclusions from NTSB data. In fact, they *should*
do so, if they're interested in maximizing their chances of not eventually
becoming a read-about incident or accident in the database.

Bob W.

Precisely, and this is why we should encourage speculation rather than
'wait for the NTSB report'.
And I'll start by saying that from a second hand report this was a
spin of the top of a (not so) high speed pass.
I for one will think twice before attempting a high speed low pass
again especially if i am not 100% sure I'll be able to build enough
speed.
This had been another terrible year for glider accidents and it is
tragic to loose so many but we should all try to learn as much as
possible from every accident to increase our safety.

Ramy

Without attribution to anyone, I've gathered the following.

The PIC was familiar with the site, having flown rides there last year
with a 2-32 (the one in the earlier MT fatal crash).

He owned the BG-12b since 2007. *However, this was apparently his
first outing with the glider and his fifth flight in it. *He'd flown
it earlier in the week. *Stall tests showed a tendency for right wing
to break first.

The downwind was apparently described as slow (and low) despite an
estimated 10-15mph tail wind. *If that's ground wind, it's likely to
be somewhat higher at 100ft, 200ft, and 300ft above the ground.
Turning 180 for a landing in a wind gradient reverses the wind speed
differential between the lower and higher wings and maybe allowed the
lowered wing to stall.

Some may recall the Derek Piggott story of doing a 180 to a down wind
landing being the only thing that allowed enough aileron authority in
the wind gradient to be able to level the wings for landing.

Frank Whiteley- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

NTSB report:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/br...18X01703&key=1

Ramy

Radio checks on the ground, engine running or off, are always "Five By". In
flight, I can receive all transmissions, it's *my* transmissions which are
garbled. I've tried different headsets, wiggled connections (under the
panel), etc. Sometimes I'm clear and sometimes nobody hears. It's a very
sleepy airport with only a few operations per week other than gliders so not
much of a problem.

"JJ Sinclair" wrote in message
...

I'm continually told that the radio in the tug I fly is "unreadable",
"garbled", etc. I have no control over it. The operation has no money to

Don't know what to tell you Dan, is the radio garbled with engine off?
Could be a place to start.

I have aften thought that my friend Hal would have willingly bought a
radio for every tow plane in the country, had he only known the tragic
events that awaited him and his tow pilot that November day, 2 years
ago.
JJ

Most practicing instructors I've known don't know how to safely do a low
pass (or fly or teach cross country, for that matter). Not intending to
cast aspersions on any instructors, just relating my personal experience in
learning to fly gliders... Cross country (and other bad habits) I learned
by watching, listening, following, asking questions, reading, etc. There
was nobody qualified to teach me.


"Bruce Hoult" wrote in message
...
On Aug 24, 12:42 pm, BobW wrote:
Ummmm...what're the chances of having an unplanned, low-altitude rope
break/premature termination of tow (for any reason) vs. having an
unplanned
zoomie suddenly appear?

The very fact that zoomies are planned in advance makes them less
surprising, and therefore less prone to panic, rushing things etc than
unplanned rope breaks.


Why is one mandated to be practiced (with instructors) and the other not?

You have several times now ignored the possibility of training how to
do a low pass with an instructor on board, just like any other gliding
maneuver.

In article "Dan Marotta" writes:
So much reliance on radios!

I'm continually told that the radio in the tug I fly is "unreadable",
"garbled", etc. I have no control over it.

Many things could cause it. Wind or engine noise overcoming the headset
noise cancelling microphone, SWR causing RF on the microphone and radio
wiring, a broken radio, perhaps from internal condensation if it has been
around for a while.


The operation has no money to
fix the problem. Should they shut down, instead?

I would suggest that they find money to fix the radio. It is cheap insurance
against another accident report because one of the rare visitors doesn't understand
what the glider operation is doing, and cannot understand your radio.



I'm still hearing excuses for poor pilot technique and lack of knowledge of
signals.

Is that like excuses for bad radios? (You are not alone. A good fraction of
the gliders where I fly have unreadable radios.)

Alan

On Aug 31, 4:13*pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
Most practicing instructors I've known don't know how to safely do a low
pass (or fly or teach cross country, for that matter). *Not intending to
cast aspersions on any instructors, just relating my personal experience in
learning to fly gliders... *Cross country (and other bad habits) I learned
by watching, listening, following, asking questions, reading, etc. *There
was nobody qualified to teach me.

What kind of glider are they training in?

We do rides and initial training here in a pair of DG1000s. Before
that we used two Grob Twin Astirs (and a Janus) for about a dozen
years, and before that Blaniks. All were capable of cross country
training, though of course the later ones are better...

I don't think you'd want to try a low pass in the Blanik. The Vne is
plenty high, but you'd lose speed very quickly.

Twenty-six years ago, when I started gliding, it was the Schweizer 2-33 and
the Lark IS-28B2. None of the instructors where I learned flew cross
country, they just instructed over the local area. I had a friend lead me
around farther and farther from the airport until I gained the confidence to
head out on my own. DG1000? Not invented yet!

I have seen Blaniks doing routine low passes with paying passengers on
board. I won't mention the operation where this is done...


"Bruce Hoult" wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 4:13 pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
Most practicing instructors I've known don't know how to safely do a low
pass (or fly or teach cross country, for that matter). Not intending to
cast aspersions on any instructors, just relating my personal experience
in
learning to fly gliders... Cross country (and other bad habits) I learned
by watching, listening, following, asking questions, reading, etc. There
was nobody qualified to teach me.

What kind of glider are they training in?

We do rides and initial training here in a pair of DG1000s. Before
that we used two Grob Twin Astirs (and a Janus) for about a dozen
years, and before that Blaniks. All were capable of cross country
training, though of course the later ones are better...

I don't think you'd want to try a low pass in the Blanik. The Vne is
plenty high, but you'd lose speed very quickly.

Why not mention names? If the operation is unsafe then it should be
publicized, just like you should intercede if someone was taking off
with the spoilers open.

If the operation is safe (not necessarily my opinion), then the operator
would probably appreciate the publicity.

Mike Schumann


On 8/31/2011 10:42 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Twenty-six years ago, when I started gliding, it was the Schweizer 2-33
and the Lark IS-28B2. None of the instructors where I learned flew cross
country, they just instructed over the local area. I had a friend lead
me around farther and farther from the airport until I gained the
confidence to head out on my own. DG1000? Not invented yet!

I have seen Blaniks doing routine low passes with paying passengers on
board. I won't mention the operation where this is done...


"Bruce Hoult" wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 4:13 pm, "Dan Marotta" wrote:
Most practicing instructors I've known don't know how to safely do a low
pass (or fly or teach cross country, for that matter). Not intending to
cast aspersions on any instructors, just relating my personal
experience in
learning to fly gliders... Cross country (and other bad habits) I learned
by watching, listening, following, asking questions, reading, etc. There
was nobody qualified to teach me.

What kind of glider are they training in?

We do rides and initial training here in a pair of DG1000s. Before
that we used two Grob Twin Astirs (and a Janus) for about a dozen
years, and before that Blaniks. All were capable of cross country
training, though of course the later ones are better...

I don't think you'd want to try a low pass in the Blanik. The Vne is
plenty high, but you'd lose speed very quickly.


--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 22, 5:18*pm, BobW wrote:

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale. What
others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

You might ask yourself the same question about contest flying in
general, cross-country soaring in general or soaring in general. They
answer in every case is "because of the enjoyment". Winning a contest
day is the ultimate "hey look at me", moment.

In every phase of soaring we need to look at the risk/reward -
remembering that each is, after all, in the name of a prima facie
frivolous activity.