US Troops using AK-47s

"Clark" wrote in message
.. .
(BUFDRVR) wrote in
:

Bill Phillips wrote:

The AK fires the 7.62mm x 39 which is much less powerful that the 7.62mm
x 51 used in the M14.

OK, I've never understood the x 39 or x 51. What do these numbers refer
to?
Cartridge dimension (hint: its not diameter)

So as not to get hit for a non-aviation post; what color is your
favorite aircraft?

ummm, low vis grey?

I actually prefer the old off white gloss paint jobs. It was much easuer to
clean on wash day.

snip

I actually prefer the old off white gloss paint jobs. It was much easuer
to
clean on wash day.

I meant to say easier

From: (BUFDRVR)
Date: 7/19/2004 9:26 PM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

Bill Phillips wrote:

The AK fires the 7.62mm x 39 which is much less powerful that the 7.62mm x
51 used in the M14.

OK, I've never understood the x 39 or x 51. What do these numbers refer to?

So as not to get hit for a non-aviation post; what color is your favorite
aircraft?




BUFDRVR


The X number refers to case length. There are several 7.62 diameter rounds out
there varying length. 30 carbine = 7.62 X 33, 30-06 = 7.62 X 63. The Russian
equivilent to the 30-06 X 54R.

Since neither the carbine or 30-06 are in common military use you won't find
many people using the metric form.

Trivia: the 06 in 30-06 refers to the year it was accepted by the U.S. Army,
1906. It replaced the 30-03 for the 1903 Springfield rifle. The round had poor
ballistics and the rifle chambered for it used poor metalurgy and was unsafe to
shoot.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

UHHH... Robert, BUFFDRVR, everyone...

Firstly, this is a interesting subject, but should be noted off-topic. I
might be lengthy, but I hope that is worth of reading. This is a view of a
first-time AK user, plus some comments and observations.


The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one that
is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the 80's
he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers
(yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until I've
seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a good
belly laugh). A subdued comment on the personal weapons issue in
Afghanistan-was "When you are in Rome...".

M-16 vs AK-47 (and subversions): M-16 is more complicated and more prone to
jamming. Nevertheless, it provides beter accuracy. As for the calibre, the
7.62 puts more energy onto the target than 5.56, but if you want somebody
dead, 5.56 is better. 7.62 is a "human" round-it goes straight through the
flesh, smashing bones on its way. 5.56, due to its low weight and energy
dissipation, tumbles and "wonders around" (I don't want to go into gruelsome
details) even at zero distance. I remember two cases; one attempted suicide
in the chest with M-70 resulted, basically, in two holes-in&out (a wanabee
dead got out without any damage to major organs). OTOH, a 5.56 round fired
from a M-16 derivative acidentally fired in the back of a fellow comrade
resulted in fatal injuries; the bullet never left the body but smashed
everything inside. But the best example is a Soviet "TT" pistol that is a
copy of the famous Colt 45 chambered for 7.62 mm bullet. Well, that 7.62
bullet is FMJ and the round looks more like a mongrel between pistol and
rilfe bullet! TT puts more energy in Joules on a target than any
mass-produced pistol/revolver in service or use (including famous 44
magnum!), but its real effect is much lower because the reasons above-its
cumulative effect is low. But if you load it with 7.63 Mauser that perfectly
fits TT (hollow point, lower velocity) you make a havoc.

As for replacing M-16 with AK-47 in Iraq (or anywhere), Robert, you would
soon become a permanent resident in Ft. Leavenworth. If you try to make a
point, make it from user's view. If I were given an option to have the AK-47
beside "my" M-16, the answer is simple-I don't have to fiddle much about it,
I would keep my primary gun clean and tidy while I can treat an AK-47 as a
"whore".

Or, if you want to believe in conspiracy theories, nobody is counting your
rounds nor the AK can be traced back to you if you whack someone by
accident... or purpose. You might note that Israelis have a sort of AK-47
copy (5.56mm Galil) but they are not grabbing AK-47s. Basically, it is a
legally-obtained ILLEGAL weapon.

And Stg 44 has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in common with AK-47 but the basic layout
and that is gas-operated. It was one of the German "wunderweapons" that
could fail if there was a slightest difference in the round shape or powder
load; its loading system is completely different; trigger and auto/semiauto
assembly is completely different; its ejection system is completely
different. Actually, you could find more similarities between Smeisherr and
British Mark Sten.

I have handled and been trained to Yugoslav version of AK-47 called M-70 as
well as for "improved maintenace" of it. Generally, you disassemble 3 (or
so) more parts then usual and learn some peculiarities. I had a wooden-stock
earlier version (it was A1, A2, AB1, AB2 or something like that, it was 16
years ago, and since I did not participate in the war I do not remember, but
I remember some details that are uncommon). No maintenace difference,
everything interchangeable between versions, barrel fatigue factor 7 (i.e.
good, I -think- it was on the 10-5 scale). It was 1989, the rifle was over
ten years old.

Yu-version is improved with over-calibre grenade sight (you lift it, it
closes the gas chamber thus disabling the gas-operation- manually work the
bolt to load a chamber from a magazine, aim it like RPG) and accompanying
bolt-on-barrel launcher/ "special" rounds. Like AKM-47 (a more modern,
simplified version of AK-47 with forged instead machined frame), it goes
with bolt-on-muzzle compensator that comes as a standard equipment that
needs to be unscrewed before mounting of the launcher barrel protrusion.
Fold and wooden stock versions available. Foldable luminiscent nightsights.
We were thought that M-70 is the finest from the AK-47 family.

It also comes in machinegun version called M-72 with longer barrel, mouth
compensator and grenade sight deleted and with optional 50 round drum
magazine (rarely used). All parts Interchangeable with M-70.

My "impressions" from live round training-prone position, semiauto/auto.

- Recoil is low to medium. It is quite comfortable, really. Other guys with
folding stock versions were slightly less comfortable. Recoil goes straight
up and is controlable, thanks to the compensator. M-72 guys expirienced some
yaw recoil, but
they were not allowed to use semi-auto on their guns (go figure!).
- For me, it was possible to put all rounds (five of them) in 35 cm circle
after my second try, semiauto (100m, I think). The sights were unadjusted
(it went low/right) but we were not allowed to tamper with them, so I aimed
left/higher. I got two bullseyes.

- In full auto, we were supposed to hit chest targets with three-four round
bursts. I found it quite easy to control it after a second burst. Just a
quick squirt and three are on their way. My third burst got it down. Since
in Yu army you were supposed to get all targets down (you would get "Not all
targets are down!" yell and you knew what to do), we went spraying. Well,
then you discover that you are not going anywhere if you keep it longer then
four rounds burst and that is a waste of ammo.

As for my markmanship, I had some experience with pellet and bolt-action 22
LR. While in high-school, I have also fired 7.9mm M-48 bolt-action rifle
(that's the very same bullet the Bf-109E machineguns had, and we called a
rifle a "donkey" since it was punching on both sides!). Anyway, I was
mediocre at best.

-Maintenace. Well, to tell you the truth, an idiot can take care of it. You
clean the muzzle, gas chamber, bolt piston, receiver (?) and that's about
it. We had a gunsmith on the field and we picked a trick how to clean the
piston (that had some residues on it); stick in the ground, rotate, oil,
wipe. He also told us that M-70/AK-47 "likes" a just a drop of fine gun oil
in the barrel prior to firing/storing. Yes, we asked him about dust and sand
but he said not to worry, that it keeps the barrel from fatigue on a limited
"live" firing since you fire quite a lot black-powder filled practice rounds
on the tactical excercise and it is not bad for storing, although officers
hate to see it-but it is better to get verbally bashed over oily barrel than
be reprimanded for reducing the barrel condition. Since he was making and
modifying weapons at home, we trusted him.

Overall, the M-70 has a very steep learning curve and it is "timid". Simple
and literally jam-free. If you need a automatic rifle, and you need it NOW,
I cannot imagine anything better then AK.

Yet another Yu-version was developed-a sniper rifle-7.9mm semiautomatic but
I don't know the particulars. And hunting version, too. And machinegun
version. And close-combat version.

Where to get an M-70? )) Well, before the Yu-war, Yugoslavia was covertly
exporting M-70s to Iraq among other weapons. If you try to get it at the
source, it cannot be "demilitarized" in any country of former Yugoslavia as
it is exclusively a combat weapon.

Yu-war experience:

From what I've heard from the both sides, Romanian version is awful, no
precission or accuracy. Poor steel, heats a lot so it was causing burns.
Note that former M70 users, all sides, were used to a longer left-hand
underbarrel grip thanks to launcher sight so one coud adjust it more
comfortably-Romanian version has a -pistol- left-hand grip but a habit is a
habit. Anyway, it was considered to be a piece of garbage and was only good
for overhead spraying from the trench. It was generally discarded if better
AK or M-70 was captured.

During the war, many AKs came from Hungary, but I am not sure if they were
Hungarian (if there was a Hungarian production) or Russian production. They
were reportedly considered allright and from what I see it still makes a
bulk in Croatian Army. Serbia and Montenegro exclusively use M-70 subtypes
since the production is there.

You can put two 30 round magazines together (over/under) with a
duct tape, stab the one with rounds down in the dirt, rotate it to reload
and it would work every time!

Some M-16 derivatives were used by Croatian Army in the first stages of war
(as the weapons were procured through various sources) but was not widely
adopted even when CA was able to purchase it (late in the war).


Sorry for being overly long-I had nothing else to do!

Nele

NULLA ROSA SINE SPINA


Regnirps wrote in message ...
(BUFDRVR) wrote:

I think pretty much *everyone* says a 7.62 has better "knockdown" power
than
5.56.

Certainly true for M14s. I'll take 180 grains at 2800 fps over 55 at 3200
any
day. (unless you want to eat the rabbit).

-- Charlie Springer

In message , Nele VII
writes

snip


The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one that
is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the 80's
he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers
(yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until I've
seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a good
belly laugh).

Google for 'screw-guns' and 'British Army in India' preWW I

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

"M. J. Powell" wrote:

In message , Nele VII
writes

snip


The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one that
is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the 80's
he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers
(yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until I've
seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a good
belly laugh).

Google for 'screw-guns' and 'British Army in India' preWW I

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin' cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets --
'Tss! 'Tss!

For you all love the screw-guns -- the screw-guns they all love
you,....
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...
In message , Nele VII
writes

snip


The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one
that
is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the
80's
he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers
(yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until
I've
seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a
good
belly laugh).

Google for 'screw-guns' and 'British Army in India' preWW I

Mike

You dont need to go that far back, pack howitzers were issued
to US and British forces in WW2 and hauled by mules

http://community-2.webtv.net/msn.com...601stFABnPack/

Keith

Keith Willshaw wrote:

"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...
In message , Nele VII
writes

snip


The friend of mine, former US Army-I don't know which branch, the one
that
is jumping from Hercules with oxygen bottles and parafoil-back in the
80's
he was in Afghanistan equipping Mujahedins with donkey-mounted howitzers
(yeah, I know what you are thinking. I didn't believe it either until
I've
seen the pictures of such all-terain self-propelled howitzers and had a
good
belly laugh).

Google for 'screw-guns' and 'British Army in India' preWW I

Mike

You dont need to go that far back, pack howitzers were issued
to US and British forces in WW2 and hauled by mules

http://community-2.webtv.net/msn.com...601stFABnPack/

First Airborne Battery, RCA, was training for jungle ops in the 1970
with their L5s broken down and hauled by 13 mules each.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

If you think momentum is an effective measure of stopping power then throw
rocks; they have more of it.

Most people use energy as a first approximation, with bullet design just as
important but harder to assess.

this gives:

5.56mm x 45, 1798 J
7.62mm x 39, 1993 J
7.62mm x 51, 3276 J

Regarding personal use; I chose the 5.56mm x 45 because it is much more
controlable that the 7.62mm x 39, probably becase less momentum equals less
recoil. With an AK-47/AKM only the first round of a burst has any real
chance of a hit, the rest go over the top, the AK-74 seems to have solved
this with its 5.45mm x 39.5 round and a muzzle brake but I have not fired
one enough to have a real oppinion. Given a head or torso hit either round
will get the job done virtually every time.

"Regnirps" wrote in message
...
"Bill Phillips" wrote:

The AK fires the 7.62mm x 39 which is much less powerful that the 7.62mm
x
51 used in the M14.

Lets rank them by momentum (in oddball units but it doesn't matter for
comparison).

.223 55gr at 3,100 fps -- 170,500
7.62x39 125gr at 2,200 fps -- 275,000 ( 1.6 times the .22)
.308 150gr at 2,800 fps -- 420,000 ( 2.46 times the .22 and 1.53 times
the
Russian)

I'll take the M14 any day, but I practive with one a lot (and I picked the
high
end. I have seen some NATO ball ammo at 2,300). Assuming they won't let
you
have one, which of the other two do you pick?

-- Charlie Springer

The X number refers to case length. There are several 7.62 diameter rounds
out
there varying length. 30 carbine = 7.62 X 33, 30-06 = 7.62 X 63. The Russian
equivilent to the 30-06 X 54R

Thanks to all for the answer. I'm assuming the larger x number, the longer the
case and the longer the case the greater the load of powder?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"