3rd Class Med and Anti-depressants

Greetings:

I take an anti-depresant (LexaPro) and I know that FAA won't allow it.
Personally, I have no problem saying "FO" to the FAA (damn
bureaucrats).

Anyhow, can anyone tell me if current 3rd class exams do a drug test
of any kind (blood, unrine)? If they don't I have no problem
falsifying the form, after all one of our presidents lied under oath
and nobody cared, right??

Secondly, if I succeed in getting a 3rd Class under such "false
pretenses", what happens to my insurance in case of an "incident" of
some sort? Can my insurance carrier refuse to honor a claim because
my med cert wasn't really legal??

Would it make a difference if it's determined afterward that my taking
the drug in no way contributed to the cause? (like the landing gear
won't extend, I belly the sucker in and the insurer tries to deny
coverage).

I welcome answers from all, but am especially interested in those
familar with the laws (attorneys??), doctors who perform FAA exams or
perhaps someone who is already doing what I've mentioned above (NO I
*ain't* the FAA).

I especially DON'T want to hear from those wishing to "scold", lecture
or "preach" to me, or tell me what a jerk I am for considering such a
thing. I've been a pilot for 40 years, have never so much as scratched
an airplane or made a passenger sick, and to some degree *I* know
what's best for me. So, to those few with the holier-than-thou
attitudes please keep your responses to yourself; I won't even bother
to read them.

Of course I want to have the ticker and blood pressure, eyesight and
everthing else that's REALLY important checked properly by a qualified
medical examiner, in order to be as safe as I can for myself and
everyone else. But I can tell you that it'd be FAR better for me to
be flying around USING the drugs, than going off them to get the
medical and THEN flying. THAT would be far more potentially dangerous
than being on the drug, trust me.

Private EMail response welcomed at

Regards

D M

CP-ASMEL I

On 19 Jul 2003 20:04:13 -0700, (Don Martin)
wrote:

Greetings:

I take an anti-depresant (LexaPro) and I know that FAA won't allow it.
Personally, I have no problem saying "FO" to the FAA (damn
bureaucrats).
(snip)


Of course I want to have the ticker and blood pressure, eyesight and
everthing else that's REALLY important checked properly by a qualified
medical examiner, in order to be as safe as I can for myself and
everyone else. But I can tell you that it'd be FAR better for me to
be flying around USING the drugs, than going off them to get the
medical and THEN flying. THAT would be far more potentially dangerous
than being on the drug, trust me.

You don't consider the brain to be _REALLY important_ ?

Sir, the fact that you are on a mind-altering chemical which may
affect neurotransmitter activity in ways that may not be fully
understood and you've clearly demonstrated to the whole world that you
have a condescending attitude to the rules, that is proof enough to me
that you are lacking substantially in the judgement area and that
alone forms my opinion of you to not be a safe pilot.

Question, why can't you get off the anti depressants? I'm currently a
student pilot and once I found out that taking Anti depressants is a no-no,
I arranged with my doctor to get off my happy pills (zoloft, wellbutrin, and
Depokote). I must admitt that it was really hard, but I can't and won't give
up the thought of getting my pilots license. Try working with your doc on
getting off your med's if possible.

For all ya pilots out there that suffer from Depression it's not the end of
the world, I suffer from Major Clinical Depression all my life, but the
last few years I let it get out of control when I lost my job. Still
unemployed but at my choice. While everbody else is working a 9-5 i'm
working on my pilots license!

Happy flying!



"Don Martin" wrote in message
om...
Greetings:

I take an anti-depresant (LexaPro) and I know that FAA won't allow it.
Personally, I have no problem saying "FO" to the FAA (damn
bureaucrats).

Anyhow, can anyone tell me if current 3rd class exams do a drug test
of any kind (blood, unrine)? If they don't I have no problem
falsifying the form, after all one of our presidents lied under oath
and nobody cared, right??

Secondly, if I succeed in getting a 3rd Class under such "false
pretenses", what happens to my insurance in case of an "incident" of
some sort? Can my insurance carrier refuse to honor a claim because
my med cert wasn't really legal??

Would it make a difference if it's determined afterward that my taking
the drug in no way contributed to the cause? (like the landing gear
won't extend, I belly the sucker in and the insurer tries to deny
coverage).

I welcome answers from all, but am especially interested in those
familar with the laws (attorneys??), doctors who perform FAA exams or
perhaps someone who is already doing what I've mentioned above (NO I
*ain't* the FAA).

I especially DON'T want to hear from those wishing to "scold", lecture
or "preach" to me, or tell me what a jerk I am for considering such a
thing. I've been a pilot for 40 years, have never so much as scratched
an airplane or made a passenger sick, and to some degree *I* know
what's best for me. So, to those few with the holier-than-thou
attitudes please keep your responses to yourself; I won't even bother
to read them.

Of course I want to have the ticker and blood pressure, eyesight and
everthing else that's REALLY important checked properly by a qualified
medical examiner, in order to be as safe as I can for myself and
everyone else. But I can tell you that it'd be FAR better for me to
be flying around USING the drugs, than going off them to get the
medical and THEN flying. THAT would be far more potentially dangerous
than being on the drug, trust me.

Private EMail response welcomed at

Regards

D M

CP-ASMEL I

Just something to consider. One of the potential side effects of many
anti-depressants is sudden siezures, which can occur without warning and
even after a considerable time taking the drug without having any prior
problems. For a PIC this is not good. I am not a doctor and not privy to
the FAA's reasoning but my guess is that is one of the primary reasons that
they are prohibited. Heck, being banned even when they're being taken for
non-psychiatric reasons, like prohibiting Zyban taken as an aid to stop
smoking, indicates there's something else in the logic besides concern over
the emotional state of the pilot.

"Don Martin" wrote in message
om...
Greetings:

I take an anti-depresant (LexaPro) and I know that FAA won't allow it.
Personally, I have no problem saying "FO" to the FAA (damn
bureaucrats).

Anyhow, can anyone tell me if current 3rd class exams do a drug test

Larry Rodriguez wrote:

You don't consider the brain to be _REALLY important_ ?

Personally, I'm wondering if someone out there hates the real Don Martin badly
enough to post this? If someone would post the fact that they are taking a
disqualifying drug and intend to falsify the medical exam application and then
sign their real name to it, I would agree that they are "lacking substantially
in the judgement area" (as you so nicely put it).

George Patterson
The optimist feels that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The
pessimist is afraid that he's correct.
James Branch Cavel

Thanks for that thought. I have already considered that and my
psychiatrist says that since I've been on the drug for three years
with never a hint of any side effect, then the chance of a seizure is
so infintesimal as to be non-existant. Actually, Wellbutrin if far
more likely to cause seizures, than either Celexa or LexaPro (more
refined version of Celexa). I've been on Celexa since 1999 (20 mg per
day) and just recently switched to LexaPro at half that dosage.

Consider that at 60 (my age), it's quite easy to get a very "clean"
EKG at noon and be dead of a heart attack at 13:00. It happens, so
what's the difference??? Either way the plane is coming down. Heart
attack or seizure it makes no difference.

FWIW, my wife, with no ratings at all, but VERY competent at the
controls would be in the right seat on almost every flight. She flies
better from the right seat than I do!!

To the person that mentioned getting off the drug.... I can do that,
but if so I become the irritable, suffer severe anxiety attacks, am
quite hard to get along with, etc. But the best part is that it makes
my tolerance for a**holes extremely high!! 8-)

I've suffered this maldady all my life as did my father and his
mother.... It's hereditary. But it's just in the last 3 years that
I've been treated chemically. My qualify of life is so improved with
the drug that it's incredible.

Thank you both for you **constructive** and helpful responses.

D M

"Steve House" wrote in message ...
Just something to consider. One of the potential side effects of many
anti-depressants is sudden siezures, which can occur without warning and
even after a considerable time taking the drug without having any prior
problems. For a PIC this is not good. I am not a doctor and not privy to
the FAA's reasoning but my guess is that is one of the primary reasons that
they are prohibited. Heck, being banned even when they're being taken for
non-psychiatric reasons, like prohibiting Zyban taken as an aid to stop
smoking, indicates there's something else in the logic besides concern over
the emotional state of the pilot.

Pilots are held to a higher standard than the rest of the population when it
comes to mental health medications. There are millions of people driving
heavy metal down expressways every day while on the same drugs that
disqualify pilots. Is this fair? I don't think so.

"Don Martin" wrote in message
om...

FWIW, my wife, with no ratings at all, but VERY competent at the
controls would be in the right seat on almost every flight. She flies
better from the right seat than I do!!


So perhaps your wife should get her private certificate and a medical. Then
you could legally fly in the left seat all you want as long as she is in the
right seat.
This is probably the simplest solution -- even if you had strong letters of
support from physicians, an initial Special Issuance takes at least 4-6
months. Your wife could easily have her private certificate in less time
than that, and then your problem is solved.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

On 19 Jul 2003 20:04:13 -0700, (Don Martin)
wrote:

Greetings:

I take an anti-depresant (LexaPro) and I know that FAA won't allow it.
Personally, I have no problem saying "FO" to the FAA (damn
bureaucrats).


snip
Of course I want to have the ticker and blood pressure, eyesight and
everthing else that's REALLY important checked properly by a qualified
medical examiner, in order to be as safe as I can for myself and
everyone else. But I can tell you that it'd be FAR better for me to
be flying around USING the drugs, than going off them to get the

medical and THEN flying. THAT would be far more potentially dangerous
than being on the drug, trust me.

"I think" the general population wouldn't understand that last
sentence, or what's behind it.



"As I understand" this hot potato is being worked on.

Contrary to what some on here seem to think, many of the drugs are
safe. It's more the psychological background that worries the FAA..
Many patients get to feeling good, think they don't need the meds so
they quit taking them and end up back at square one where they can be
a hazard. Others won't admit they need them so they only take them for
a short while.

In short, the FAA doesn't want pilots with clinical depression flying
around.

"The last I heard" the FAA was taking this type of problem under
consideration.

If they ever do OK applicants using anti depressants it will probably
be with the requirement that they periodically have a checkup to prove
they are taking the meds and that the meds are working. OR...IF off
the meds, they are no longer needed.

My stand on this has softened some what over the years, and is based
on knowing a number of individuals who suffered from clinical
depression which "as I understand" is often, but not always, caused by
a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Two committed suicide, a couple are unable to work, one can't hold a
job (which is different), and many are living normal lives. I know
one entire family that sufferes from clinical depression. Medication
has done wonders for all but one of the members.

It's the tendency for people to quit taking their meds that has had me
opposing the passing of the medical for such cases in the past, but
having known a number who stay on the meds and are living normal lives
has me questioning the FAA's stance on these drugs.

*Some* of the drugs would be disqualifying just by their side effects
while others would not. OTOH, like antihistamines which put some
people to sleep and leave others apparently unaffected. I think
evaluations need to be done on an individual basis.

Unfortunately I don't think we are going to see that kind of approach
from an understaffed bureaucracy that feels a need for CYA any time
soon.

Pilots themselves tend to be highly polarized on this issue and many
of them don't understand (or have the wrong understanding) the
reasoning the FAA uses for disqualifying an individual taking those
drugs.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)

Private EMail response welcomed at

Regards

D M

CP-ASMEL I

On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 01:20:43 GMT, "Richard Kaplan"
wrote:



"Roger Halstead" wrote in message
.. .

Pilots themselves tend to be highly polarized on this issue and many
of them don't understand (or have the wrong understanding) the
reasoning the FAA uses for disqualifying an individual taking those
drugs.

Take a look at the pilot "reasoning" in the initial post... Presuming this
is a real post and not a troll, do you think the FAA is far off the mark?

Not as far as I used to.
I have a bit of a time understanding "clinical depression" as I've
never suffered any form of depression, other than feeling bad when my
dog got run over when I was a kid. Feeling bad about something, or
unhappy due to a reason such as that is not depression.

"As I understand", basically there are those who take the meds and
live normal lives, there are those who take them and still have
problems, there are those who take the meds which work, but have side
effects, and there are a good many who won't admit to a problem and
don't take the meds. Only the first would be safe to fly.

As I stated in one of the other posts, the FAA doesn't want pilots
with clinical depression flying around, nor do I. They can easily end
up like the kid in Florida that stuck the trainer into the side of a
bank building. Who knows how many drivers have decided to cross the
centerline into oncoming traffic?

IF they can verify they are taking meds that do not cause problems AND
do not suffer symptoms while taking it, I see no problem with them
flying...HOWEVER it's that verification and the percentage that keep
quitting the meds that bothers me. It also means the FAA is stuck
with the knowledge if they pass some one, that sooner or later some
one on the meds might forget, or just quit and the results would leave
the reporters having a field day.

I don't see a sure fire way of knowing they are taking the medications
regularly and that they are working.

Even regular checkups are no guarantee.

Roger Halstead (K8RI EN73 & ARRL Life Member)
www.rogerhalstead.com
N833R World's oldest Debonair? (S# CD-2)