Cessna 152 spin integrity

"Peter Dohm" wrote in
:


"Bertie the Bunyip" wrote in message
.. .
"JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote in
news:7ec1fcb50fea9@uwe:

Ricky wrote:


I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?


Sounds like the school didn't have a whole lot of confidence in
the spin
training they provided. Assuming you're within the proper weight
and CG envelope, spins should be quite predictable. Particularly in
something like a 152.

A local FBO will only allow spins in their Great Lakes aerobatic
trainers
(they also have Supercubs and Huskies) because the have cageable
gyros. I've often wondered if this isn't an Old Wives Tale. I've
been spinning my Cherokee on a fairly regular basis since 1994. The
gyros often tumble during spins, but that's never caused a
maintenance problem. I've still got the same gyros in the panel
that were there when I bought the plane 14 yrs. ago. They've never
been removed for OH and they're still working fine.


Holy Crap! That's amazing!

It definitely wrecks gyros. The one place I worked that had no non
gyro airplanes had one airplane ( cherokee) for spins and it's gyros
barely showed any interest at all.
I suppose it depends on the quality, but it is defnitely not an old
wives tale.


Bertie

My recollection is that a "normal" spin entry would tumble the gyros
in a 150M, but not in a 152. Apparently, if my recollection of the
gimbal limits is correct, the 150 dipped through 80 degrees nose down
on the entry and the 152 did not.

Well, that seems kinda strange! The airframes are essentially the
same.The CG would probably be a bit different and maybe they've riggd
the airplane differently ( decalage) I haven't got a lot of time in a
152 and in fact I don't think I've ever taught in one. I can't even
remember what a Cherokee spins like..


There seems to be a wide variation in the spin entry for various
aircraft, even when the entry is not from an accelerated stall, and
there are also a variety of non-tumbling gyros (in addition to
gageable viarieties) in the GA fleet. All of the cageable gyros that
I have personally seen were the old fashioned varieties (gull-wing
horizons and those old DGs that looked like the whiskey compass in the
windshield) which would tumble on any excursion through 60 degrees of
pitch or roll if not gaged.


True enough. sounds plausible, allright. I don't know though. Most of
the airplanes I used to spin had wrecked gyros in no time, though.

I have never personally seen any of the newer type gyros which were
cageable, although I presume that they exist. In any case, the newer
types (which can now be close to 40 years old) are certainly more
rugged than their predecessors.

I've seen them for sale OK. New ones. They're megabucks.

Please treat this as a request for information and comment.


I'm not that scary!



Bertie


Bertie

My recollection is that a "normal" spin entry would tumble the gyros in a
150M, but not in a 152. *Apparently, if my recollection of the gimbal limits
is correct, the 150 dipped through 80 degrees nose down on the entry and the
152 did not.

Oh. The 152 goes at least to 80. I'd say inverted through 90, pretty
much, on entry.

It's got a caged gyro but when I've done spins it wasn't caged --
definitely took a tumble.

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube
and it got me thinking;

I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that
spins do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this
true?

I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from
my school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?

I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but
may take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.

Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's
structure?

Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy
beyond
a
handful of spins.

Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't
know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it
incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass
the flight test and not know these answers.


Modern life!

To be fair, I wouldn't have known much about structures and G
limits when I got my commercial either. There's certainly nothing
presented in the syllabus that could be described as anything more
than rudimentary. The current trend is to tell pilots less and less
about how the airplanes they fly are put together. The last type
rating I did was just appalling.


Bertie
Again, I don't mean to be picking on the OP who innocently asked
what I'm sure he believes to be pertinent questions. My puzzlement
is more directed at the system that trained this pilot.
Likewise.

A commercial pilot who has to ask if a spin greatly increases the g
forces on an airplane?

Well, to be fair, it varies a bit

A commercial pilot who has to ask if spins are inherently dangerous?

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!

Have been in some quarters for some time.. Most of the kids coming up
as FOs at my place have either never spun or have only seen them
demonstrated. Because of the other thread on it, I was talking with
my FO abou tit over dinner, and he told me that he had only had been
shown them oncece and that they had done three turns in a 172, but he
thought that the airplane must have been spiraling for the last few
turns. I told him that 172s are hard to get to go around more than
about a half a turn. He said that he queried it at the time, but was
assured by the instructor (at a big school that specialises in
training airline piots) that they were definitely spins..


Bertie

I think my main concern isn't that formal instruction on spins is
missing, but rather that whoever trained this pilot apparently never
even engaged his student in a basic conversation more or less an
instructional period concerning the most general nature of the spin
environment.
It's inconceivable to me that I would send ANY applicant up for a
commercial flight test that I hadn't at least satisfied myself on the
fact that the pilot I was recommending had at least some basic
understanding about spins even though I knew the applicant wouldn't be
required to do spins.
I must be getting old or something. :-)))

Well, like I said, this stuff has been happening since I've been flying.
I suppose the only consolation is that they're harder to spin thse days.
One of the guys in my club didn't kow how to slip, never mind spin..


Bertie

I slipped yesterday....damn near fell!
:-)

--
Dudley Henriques

On Jan 25, 5:30*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube and it
got me thinking;

I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that spins
do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this true?

I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?

I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but may
take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.

Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's structure?

Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy beyond a
handful of spins.

Ricky

Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass the
flight test and not know these answers.

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My commercial was earned almost 20 years ago & I rarely fly now. As I
mentioned my school said "don't spin solo, they're dangerous and
unpredictable." I've never spun but want to now. Over my flying career
I've heard that a 152 has little problem with G loads during spins but
I wanted confirmation.
The part 141 school I went to was a lousy place who used an easy FAA
examiner b/c they're training was so poor. For example my instrument/
commercial ride was a single ILS approach which turned into a
localizer app. when I discovered the inop glideslope, and a trip
around the pattern in the Arrow, all because it was getting dark and
he had a private candidate waiting for his ride.
So, no, I don't know absolutely the danger of spinning a 152 and have
been "taught" different views...which is the purpose of my post. I
guess the knowledge I should have as a commercial pilot is not only
rusty, but was cut way short by the cheap school I chose.

Ricky

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube
and it got me thinking;

I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that
spins do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this
true?

I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning
from my school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins
indeed possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?

I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but
may take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.

Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's
structure?

Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy
beyond
a
handful of spins.

Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you
don't
know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it
incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass
the flight test and not know these answers.


Modern life!

To be fair, I wouldn't have known much about structures and G
limits when I got my commercial either. There's certainly nothing
presented in the syllabus that could be described as anything
more than rudimentary. The current trend is to tell pilots less
and less about how the airplanes they fly are put together. The
last type rating I did was just appalling.


Bertie
Again, I don't mean to be picking on the OP who innocently asked
what I'm sure he believes to be pertinent questions. My puzzlement
is more directed at the system that trained this pilot.
Likewise.

A commercial pilot who has to ask if a spin greatly increases the
g forces on an airplane?

Well, to be fair, it varies a bit

A commercial pilot who has to ask if spins are inherently
dangerous?

Things CAN'T be THIS bad....or ARE they!!!!!!

Have been in some quarters for some time.. Most of the kids coming
up as FOs at my place have either never spun or have only seen them
demonstrated. Because of the other thread on it, I was talking with
my FO abou tit over dinner, and he told me that he had only had
been shown them oncece and that they had done three turns in a 172,
but he thought that the airplane must have been spiraling for the
last few turns. I told him that 172s are hard to get to go around
more than about a half a turn. He said that he queried it at the
time, but was assured by the instructor (at a big school that
specialises in training airline piots) that they were definitely
spins..


Bertie

I think my main concern isn't that formal instruction on spins is
missing, but rather that whoever trained this pilot apparently never
even engaged his student in a basic conversation more or less an
instructional period concerning the most general nature of the spin
environment.
It's inconceivable to me that I would send ANY applicant up for a
commercial flight test that I hadn't at least satisfied myself on
the fact that the pilot I was recommending had at least some basic
understanding about spins even though I knew the applicant wouldn't
be required to do spins.
I must be getting old or something. :-)))

Well, like I said, this stuff has been happening since I've been
flying. I suppose the only consolation is that they're harder to spin
thse days. One of the guys in my club didn't kow how to slip, never
mind spin..


Bertie

I slipped yesterday....damn near fell!
:-)


Groan!

Bertie

Ricky wrote in news:6673c0ef-fe3c-43af-95c3-
:

My commercial was earned almost 20 years ago & I rarely fly now. As I
mentioned my school said "don't spin solo, they're dangerous and
unpredictable." I've never spun but want to now. Over my flying career
I've heard that a 152 has little problem with G loads during spins but
I wanted confirmation.
The part 141 school I went to was a lousy place who used an easy FAA
examiner b/c they're training was so poor. For example my instrument/
commercial ride was a single ILS approach which turned into a
localizer app. when I discovered the inop glideslope, and a trip
around the pattern in the Arrow, all because it was getting dark and
he had a private candidate waiting for his ride.
So, no, I don't know absolutely the danger of spinning a 152 and have
been "taught" different views...which is the purpose of my post. I
guess the knowledge I should have as a commercial pilot is not only
rusty, but was cut way short by the cheap school I chose.


Fairly evident from your earlier posts, but doesn't matter in your case
since you want to fix it!
My suggestion if you want to fix and since you're not hampered by paper
chasing is to go off and learn aerobatics. Find someone who knows what
they're doing to teach you. There are simple five hour introductory courses
if you're strapped for cash or you oculd just do it when able , but if you
have the dough go out and splurge.
No exotics, BTW. Extras and Pitts are too easy and you won't learn as much.
Find a Great Lakes or a Citabria. The tailwheel experience will teach you a
lot as well.


Bertie

Ricky wrote:
On Jan 25, 5:30 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube and it
got me thinking;
I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that spins
do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this true?
I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?
I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but may
take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.
Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's structure?
Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy beyond a
handful of spins.
Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass the
flight test and not know these answers.

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My commercial was earned almost 20 years ago & I rarely fly now. As I
mentioned my school said "don't spin solo, they're dangerous and
unpredictable." I've never spun but want to now. Over my flying career
I've heard that a 152 has little problem with G loads during spins but
I wanted confirmation.
The part 141 school I went to was a lousy place who used an easy FAA
examiner b/c they're training was so poor. For example my instrument/
commercial ride was a single ILS approach which turned into a
localizer app. when I discovered the inop glideslope, and a trip
around the pattern in the Arrow, all because it was getting dark and
he had a private candidate waiting for his ride.
So, no, I don't know absolutely the danger of spinning a 152 and have
been "taught" different views...which is the purpose of my post. I
guess the knowledge I should have as a commercial pilot is not only
rusty, but was cut way short by the cheap school I chose.

Ricky
I would second what the Bunyip has said above. Sign up for a basic
aerobatic course with a qualified instructor. That should bring you not
only up to speed but round out your basic flying as well.
It will probably be the best money you have ever spent for flying, and
the most productive.


--
Dudley Henriques

So, no, I don't know absolutely the danger of spinning a 152 and have
been "taught" different views...which is the purpose of my post. I
guess the knowledge I should have as a commercial pilot is not only
rusty, but was cut way short by the cheap school I chose.

Ricky- Hide quoted text -

I betcha you could go up and so some spins in the 150 over at
McGregor. I know at least one of the instructors over there does that
on occasion.

On Jan 26, 8:04*am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Ricky wrote:
On Jan 25, 5:30 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Ricky wrote:
I was watching the 50-something spins done in a 152 on youtube and it
got me thinking;
I seem to remember being taught during commercial training that spins
do not greatly increase G forces on the airplane, is this true?
I also remember being warned "no spin is exactly the same or
predictable, so DON'T do them solo! Was this just a warning from my
school so we wouldn't screw up their gyros or are spins indeed
possibly very dangerous inherently for some reason?
I would like to try some solo next time I'm up just for fun but may
take a willing CFI along (or fellow pilot) just in case.
Would 50-something spins compromise a Cessna 150 or 152's structure?
Another thing I'd be concerned about was getting overly dizzy beyond a
handful of spins.
Ricky
Hi Rick;

I'm not trying to be confrontational here but I notice you are a
commercial pilot. I can't for the life of me rectify why you don't know
the answers to the questions you are asking here. I find it incredulous
that a commercial pilot could go through the process, then pass the
flight test and not know these answers.

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

My commercial was earned almost 20 years ago & I rarely fly now. As I
mentioned my school said "don't spin solo, they're dangerous and
unpredictable." I've never spun but want to now. Over my flying career
I've heard that a 152 has little problem with G loads during spins but
I wanted confirmation.
The part 141 school I went to was a lousy place who used an easy FAA
examiner b/c they're training was so poor. For example my instrument/
commercial ride was a single ILS approach which turned into a
localizer app. when I discovered the inop glideslope, and a trip
around the pattern in the Arrow, all because it was getting dark and
he had a private candidate waiting for his ride.
So, no, I don't know absolutely the danger of spinning a 152 and have
been "taught" different views...which is the purpose of my post. I
guess the knowledge I should have as a commercial pilot is not only
rusty, but was cut way short by the cheap school I chose.

Ricky

I would second what the Bunyip has said above. Sign up for a basic
aerobatic course with a qualified instructor. That should bring you not
only up to speed but round out your basic flying as well.
It will probably be the best money you have ever spent for flying, and
the most productive.

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes, better than doing a spin with a random over at McGregor!

Check out University Flying Club, too, they've got an A152 and an
instructor who has been doing aerobatics instruction for many years
(though maybe there's somebody around Waco?)

http://studentorgs.utexas.edu/flying/

John Smith wrote:
In article ,
Jim Stewart wrote:

I can't speak for your field, Dudley, but in mine
I have to deal with electrical engineers that have
never touched a soldering iron and CS grads that
have never coded in assembly language.

When I was in school for EE 35 years ago, I was the treasurer for the
ham radio club. I had to go to our advisor for a signature. When I went
into his office he was gazing at a perfboard circuit, and shook his
head. He showed it to me and I noted the globs of solder attaching the
components. He then commented on how grad students should not be
allowed into the program until they could demonstrate proper solder
technique.

I strongly disagree with the essential complaint of Stewart and Smith. The
second E in EE is engineer. Engineers design electronic circuits - having
the personal skills to build them is secondary at best. And soldering as an
example of a demanded skill? I think you guys are showing your age! ;-)
These days circuit boards use surface mount soldered components - even that
is for the few remaining components that aren't included on the integrated
circuits. For that the EE should have some knowledge of solid state physics
at both the theoretical and empirical level.

No one would reasonably demand (at least I wouldn't!) that civil engineers,
or mechanical engineers must be proficient at welding, running a lathe,
running a milling machine, laying bricks, woodworking, plumbing, electrical
wiring, and so on before they can be considered competent engineers.

Lastly, when running into a "problem" EE who can't solder, what precisely
was wrong with suggesting the person try using plugboards or wirewrap? (My
older brother used wirewrap to build an S-100 bus graphics card back around
1980. Worked fine.)