Requirement to fly departure procedures

"Scott Skylane" wrote in message
...

Simple, there may be a crossing restriction that you can not meet.
Rather than take vectors around the offending terrain, you request a
"VFR climb through x000 feet(MVA), climb and maintain x000 ft.(cruising)"


There can be no crossing restriction below the MVA.

wrote in message
...


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

wrote in message
...

That applies to any local departure procedure for traffic or noise
abatement. It does not apply to IFR departure procedures.


It says "departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA".
That doesn't sound local to me.

If you can find them in a national charting publication, let us know.
They
are the product of the airport authority and blessed by the region for
that
airport.


Procedures established by the FAA can be found in Part 93. An example
follows:

Part 93 - Special Air Traffic Rules
Subpart J - Lorain County Regional Airport Traffic Rule

§ 93.119 Aircraft operations.
Each person piloting an airplane landing at the Lorain County Regional
Airport shall enter the traffic pattern north of the airport and shall
execute a right traffic pattern for a landing to the southwest or a left
traffic pattern for a landing to the northeast. Each person taking off from
the airport shall execute a departure turn to the north as soon as
practicable after takeoff.

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A legal opinion on the initial question follows:

November 30, 1993
Dear Mr. McBride and Mr. Birdsong:

This is in response to your letter of June 30, 1993, in which you request an
interpretation of Section 91.129(f) of the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR) (14 CFR Section 91.129 (f)).

Section 91.129(f) states, in part, that no person may operate an aircraft
taking off from an airport with an operating control tower unless he
complies with any departure procedures established for that airport by the
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)
departure procedures are established to provide a safe and efficient route
from an airport to the minimum enroute altitude.

The FAA establishes IFR departure procedures in accordance with criteria set
forth in the United States Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures
(TERPs). IFR departure procedures established under the TERPs are designed
to ensure terrain and obstacle clearance provided a pilot adheres to them.

In your letter, you ask whether a pilot must adhere to an IFR departure
procedure when cleared for takeoff at an airport with a published IFR
departure procedure. You specifically ask whether a pilot is required to
adhere to such a procedure under various operating conditions.

Under Section 91.113(b), when weather conditions permit, a pilot must
operate his aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft regardless of
whether the flight is conducted under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) or under
IFR. However, under Part 91, a pilot generally is not required to adhere to
a published IFR departure procedure. Under Instrument Meteorological
Conditions (IMC), a pilot should, but is not required to, follow an IFR
departure procedure. When outside of radar coverage, however, a pilot
remains responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance.

Furthermore, Section 91.123 provides that a pilot may not deviate from an
Air Traffic Control (ATC) clearance except in an emergency or unless an
amended clearance has been obtained. Accordingly, a pilot operating under
Part 91 must follow an IFR departure procedure when it is part of the
applicable ATC clearance.

Under Part 121 or Part 135, a pilot is required to follow any published IFR
departure procedure regardless of whether the flight is conducted under VMC
or under IMC.

If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact
Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

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Following is a legal opinion regarding locally defined arrival & departure
procedures.:

Interpretation of FAR Section 91.89(a)(3)

John B. Cassady, Assistant Chief Counsel, AGC-200

ASW-7.4

This is in response to your memo of August 22, 1983, requesting an
Interpretation of FAR Section 91.89(a)(3). Specifically, you describe an
airport that to privately owned and used, without an operating control tower
and outside any control zone. It has one runway, R 17-35, and serves gliders
and airplanes. The owner/manager has issued a diagram depicting a left-hand
traffic pattern for the airport. He announced that he intended everyone to
use a left-hand pattern, including both landing and departing aircraft. GADO
personnel were at an airport safety meeting at which the diagram was handed
out, but they did not comment on the traffic pattern. Since then, an
airplane towing a glider has been reported making close-in, right-hand
departures from the airport. You ask whether this operation is in violation
of the FAR, and if not, you ask under what circumstances Section 91.89(a)(3)
could be cited.
As you know, Section 91.89(a)(3) provides that each person operating an
aircraft to or from an airport without an operating control tower shall, in
the case of an aircraft departing the airport, comply with any FAA traffic
pattern from that airport,
In your example, it does not appear that there is any form of FAA traffic
pattern for departing aircraft. The pattern announced by the owner did not
receive FAA approval, and there is so FAR that specifically describes
patterns for departing aircraft at such an airport. Therefore, it does not
appear that the pilot violated Section 91.89(a)(3). The only possible FAR
violation that we have identified to Section 91.9. This would, of course,
depend on whether on any given flight the pilot operated the aircraft in a
careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of
another. The facts as you have described them do not suggest such a finding.

Kris

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

wrote in message
...


You can find departure procedures in U.S. Terminal Procedures publications.
These procedures are the product of the FAA, not the airport authority.

The only departure procedures in the U.S. Terminal Procedures are IFR Obstacle
and IFR ATC DPs. We're talking of noise abatement departure procedures here.

Kris Kortokrax wrote:



Procedures established by the FAA can be found in Part 93. An example
follows:

Part 93 - Special Air Traffic Rules
Subpart J - Lorain County Regional Airport Traffic Rule

Those are special air traffic rules. That is different than the local noise
abatement departures at many Class D airports that have no Part 93 rules.



§ 93.119 Aircraft operations.
Each person piloting an airplane landing at the Lorain County Regional
Airport shall enter the traffic pattern north of the airport and shall
execute a right traffic pattern for a landing to the southwest or a left
traffic pattern for a landing to the northeast. Each person taking off from
the airport shall execute a departure turn to the north as soon as
practicable after takeoff.


Thoes Part 93 procedure are established for both arrivals and epartures, which
is different that the Class D departure reference in Part 91.


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A legal opinion on the initial question follows:

November 30, 1993
Dear Mr. McBride and Mr. Birdsong:

This is in response to your letter of June 30, 1993, in which you request an
interpretation of Section 91.129(f) of the Federal Aviation Regulations
(FAR) (14 CFR Section 91.129 (f)).

Section 91.129(f) states, in part, that no person may operate an aircraft
taking off from an airport with an operating control tower unless he
complies with any departure procedures established for that airport by the
Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)
departure procedures are established to provide a safe and efficient route
from an airport to the minimum enroute altitude.

The FAA establishes IFR departure procedures in accordance with criteria set
forth in the United States Standard for Terminal Instrument Procedures
(TERPs). IFR departure procedures established under the TERPs are designed
to ensure terrain and obstacle clearance provided a pilot adheres to them.

In your letter, you ask whether a pilot must adhere to an IFR departure
procedure when cleared for takeoff at an airport with a published IFR
departure procedure. You specifically ask whether a pilot is required to
adhere to such a procedure under various operating conditions.

Under Section 91.113(b), when weather conditions permit, a pilot must
operate his aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft regardless of
whether the flight is conducted under Visual Flight Rules (VFR) or under
IFR. However, under Part 91, a pilot generally is not required to adhere to
a published IFR departure procedure. Under Instrument Meteorological
Conditions (IMC), a pilot should, but is not required to, follow an IFR
departure procedure. When outside of radar coverage, however, a pilot
remains responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance.

Furthermore, Section 91.123 provides that a pilot may not deviate from an
Air Traffic Control (ATC) clearance except in an emergency or unless an
amended clearance has been obtained. Accordingly, a pilot operating under
Part 91 must follow an IFR departure procedure when it is part of the
applicable ATC clearance.

Under Part 121 or Part 135, a pilot is required to follow any published IFR
departure procedure regardless of whether the flight is conducted under VMC
or under IMC.

If you have any further questions regarding this matter, please contact
Patricia R. Lane, Manager, Airspace and Air Traffic Law Branch.

Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations Division

That letter tells us if you're not for hire, you don't have to follow any
published IFR obstacle DP unless it's included in your clearance. That extends
to all airports, not just Class D airports, and it's different than the noise
abatement departure procedure referenced in Part 91.

Scott Skylane wrote:

wrote:

Newps wrote:


John Clonts wrote:


Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?

We have a lot of OTP cargo flights here at night. ATC does not specify
an altitude for OTP operations, sometimes the pilot will specify what
altitude he will be cruising at, sometimes not. Many times he will tell
me he will be cruising at say 6500, well below the MEA. I don't care as
it is not my responsibility. I hand him off to the center and off he
goes. From my monitoring of the center freq I gather they do not care
either.


Here’s what the policy is as set forth in AIM 4-4-7:

e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to "maintain
VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions" pilots on IFR flight plans must:
1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
91.159.
/snip/

Unless, of course, you qualify under Part 121.657:

(d) Day over-the-top operations below minimum en route altitudes. A
person may conduct day over-the-top operations in an airplane at flight
altitudes lower than the minimum en route IFR altitudes if --

(1) The operation is conducted at least 1,000 feet above the top of
lower broken or overcast cloud cover;

(2) The top of the lower cloud cover is generally uniform and level;

(3) Flight visibility is at least five miles; and

(4) The base of any higher broken or overcast cloud cover is generally
uniform and level and is at least 1,000 feet above the minimum en route
IFR altitude for that route segment.

Happy Flying!
Scott Skylane

Not too many of us get to use that provision. Plus, as I recall, the specific
route for such operations has to be in the 121 operator's approved operations
specifications.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

wrote in message
...

Won't say it's never done, but you are not suppose to operate on an IFR
flight plan, with a VFR on top restriction, below the applicable minimum
instrument altitude. That is an ATC policy and is set forth in the AIM.


It's also a regulation, which is all that is binding on the pilot.

The only regulation I know about in that regard is that I have to fly at a VFR
altitude.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Newps" wrote in message
news:glmhb.76878$%h1.66094@sccrnsc02...

Not unless you are taking off and climbing.


ATC can clear below the MVA on radar approaches.

Oh, I didn't know that! In any case, that slice of airspace is a Part
97 IAP, not a MVA chart. The MVA chart is cited in the ASR or PAR Part
97 procedure as applicable to the initial approach segment(s) only.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

wrote in message
...

That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area
where
their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their
MVA, or
higher.


Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would you
request it?

Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.

wrote:
Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would you
request it?

Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.

The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every time.

Hilton

Hilton wrote:

wrote:
Why would the tower clear you to climb VFR to the MVA? Why would you
request it?

Beats me. Hilton was the one that brought that subject up, not me.

The situation I gave was an IFR flight. I do it often, works every time.

Hilton

If I recall correctly what you said is that they cleared you to climb VFR to
maintain an altitude below MVA. Is that what you said before?