Visulalizing the Finish Cylinder

OK, it's clear people aren't seeing cylinder finish dynamics very well,
except for JJ who believes the fastest distance between two points
involves sneaking up from behind. ...Smile...

The picture I've linked shows the problem. I still need someone to
explain why this is inherently safer. Note that I have no trouble
assessing my energy state and deciding early whether to take a rolling
or flying finish. I am also capable of integrating myself with other
high speed traffic transitioning to the traffic pattern. I consider all
pilots capable of learning these skills.

However, I, like everyone esle, am unable to see through those parts of
my glider that aren't made of plexiglass. My biggest concern in any
type of finish environment is to see and be seen. It seems to me that
the cylinder becomes much more dangerous by introducing an even greater
disparity in airspeed at the finish arc, increasing the likelihood that
I will fail to see or be seen by traffic. And the traffic I'm most
likely to hit will have the greatest difference in speed.

Here's a link so you can see what I'm looking at...

ahref="http://users.adelphia.net/~cocallag/masatask/rasfinishcylinder.htm"http://users.adelphia.net/~cocallag/masatask/rasfinishcylinder.htm/a

OC

wrote:
The picture I've linked shows the problem. I still need someone to
explain why this is inherently safer. Note that I have no trouble
assessing my energy state and deciding early whether to take a rolling
or flying finish. I am also capable of integrating myself with other
high speed traffic transitioning to the traffic pattern. I consider all
pilots capable of learning these skills.

This is a very nice visualization, but it doesn't directly address the
concerns expressed by several of us. To be specific, a) the failure of
some CDs to use a final control point to get everyone flowing towards
the gate in the proper direction, and b) the conflicts in the landing
pattern caused by the range of finish energies, in particular, the split
second decision-making required with a low energy finish. As I (and
others) have said, I can solve half the problem by finishing high, but I
can not protect myself against poor decision-making by others when I am
committed to land.

Enjoy your finish gates, just don't expect the rest of us to follow suit...

Marc

It isn't meant to address the known problems of the finish gate, but to
explore the unknowns of the cylinder. A final control turn point is a
good idea in my opinion. I don't think the rules exculde its use. It is
a choice... easily implemented by a CD who listens to the opinions of
competitors.

The decision to fly through the gate or roll is hardly split second. If
you are below your safety altitude at four miles out and less than 100
knots, the decision has already been made. That's when you should be
calling a rolling finish and navigating appropriately. A rolling finish
needn't be used only when a belly flop onto the nearest bit or runway
is your best option. My rolling finishes usually involve an application
of spoilers so I'll land well short of the traffic around the gate.
There are situations where we are pulling up on the stick during the
last several thousand feet to the airport fence, but this has
absolutely nothing to do with finish gates.

The band of energy you need to be in to complete a safe pattern
insertion from 50 feet agl is pretty wide, from 100 knots up to
redline. If you find yourself unable to measure this until you are
already within the airport boundaries, you need to work on this skill.
Clearly, we are discussing this because there are pilots attending
races who cannot do this.

I can hear the argument. Why should I get better at the finish gate.
It's an unsafe artifact from an earlier era of the sport. Fine. But the
lack of skill demonstrated in today's finish gate will find its way to
the finish cylinder - same cause, different effects. I guess I'm making
the argument that guns don't kill, people do. Pretty hard to swallow
for a captial "L" liberal like me (please, not to be confused with a
Democrat!).

Marc, I guess it comes down to this... CDs can solve one of the
problems. The other, to me, is like making the decision to land out.
You can either admit at some safe altitude that the risk of continuing
the search for lift is too great and get on with making a safe pattern,
or you can wait until a safe landing is nearly impossible. Same type of
judgement for the finish gate, slightly different set of skills.

OC

Checking out again for the next few weeks. Back channel if you come up
with anything inspired.

Cheers,
Chris

Here is why I personally will not fly to a finish line again:
Last year during a regional contest the CD decided to set a finish line
to "allow for pictures to be taken". Finish direction was South to
North and explicitly announced and documented on the task sheet. The
classes had MAT and POST tasks with obviously different finishing
directions. When I announced my finish and FROM direction, no other
traffic had called in. I approached from the SW and "hooked" to the
North while crossing the finish line at about 100'. At exactly the
same time, a foreign competitor (happened to be a former World
Champion) finished direcly from the North at the same altitude. He was
less than 100' away from me and I just caught a glimpse of him, enough
to scare me to the bone. Some idiots on the ground cheered as my wife
told me later, they thought that was a fine stunt.
This could easily have resulted in two fatalities that - had they
happened - might have rendered this entire subject pointless for all to
see. To me, it is pointless and I just hope that those insisting on
having gliders converge on one point at max speeds at the end of a
tiring flight might come to see it the same way.
Herb Kilian, J7

a écrit :
OK, it's clear people aren't seeing cylinder finish dynamics very well,
except for JJ who believes the fastest distance between two points
involves sneaking up from behind. ...Smile...

from which country are this finish procedure, and what is its definition ?


--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

At 21:00 20 March 2005, 1moclimb wrote:
Here is why I personally will not fly to a finish line
again:
Last year during a regional contest the CD decided
to set a finish line
to 'allow for pictures to be taken'. Finish direction
was South to
North and explicitly announced and documented on the
task sheet. The
classes had MAT and POST tasks with obviously different
finishing
directions.

Ouch! It seems pretty dumb to set up a gate finish
without having a final
turnpoint on the 'from' side of the gate.

9B

Andy Blackburn wrote:

Ouch! It seems pretty dumb to set up a gate finish
without having a final
turnpoint on the 'from' side of the gate.

9B

Andy,

But that's what has been promoted by fiveniner and other kamikazes on
this list for days (weeks?) now! Since you can't account for all the
stupidity, ignorance and just plain old aw****s among us pilots, the
finish gate maybe just destined to become your gate to depart from this
world.
Fiveniner and KC will tell you or your grieving family that it's at
least a macho way to go!

J7

"1MoClimb" wrote in message
oups.com...
Fiveniner and KC will tell you or your grieving family that it's at
least a macho way to go!

J7

I don't know you Herb and you don't know me so why post personal insults
like this? Just to make sure that you understand things.....I am a
pediatric intensivist and have seen many, many children die. You are sorely
mistaken if you somehow think you know more than I about grieving.

You and some of the other safety proponents just do not get it. You are
swallowing hook, line and sinker any and all proposals that have the word
"safety" attached to them without eversomuch as questioning whether in fact
they may be safer. Using your reasoning we should do away with gaggle
starts and thermaling with more than one glider.....I have been closer than
you described on numerous occasions in both of those situations.

JJ has attempted to approach this from a CD perspective and in that light
would agree that the CD of the contest you are describing had to accept some
amount of responsibility for tasking in such a way as to allow this conflict
to occur. All of us supporting the gate finish feel that a final common
(steering) turn is important and that "hooking" the gate no longer is
acceptable.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

Once again, Casey is much politer than I'll be. Herb, if you knew me,
you'd know that I take safety very, very seriously. I'm more than happy
to discuss, quietly, away from the crowd and face to face the poor
judgement exhibited by pilots of any level of experience. I'm willing
to take the denial, the anger, and the threats... yes, threats, because
if I'm talking to you it's because I've grown weary of running to
accident scenes. (It doesn't take many.) I'm also willing to hear them
out when they think I'm flying outside my envelope.

There's one thing that kills more pilots than anything else: IGNORANCE.
The problem with ignorance is that it makes the flight envelope very
naroow indeed. The tragedy of ignorance is that it can be overcome with
very little effort.

I'll share with you a reflection of the 18M Nationals at Uvalde last
summer. Over the past few years, I've been taking the lead for the
gaggle more and more. One of the great disadvantages of doing this is
that everytime a find a good thermal, I have to soften my initial pull
and turn to enter the core because there's just no telling who is going
to be behind me and whether or not they are paying attention. I've had
pilots follow me, then make absolutely to effort at all to avoid me as
I try to center on the core. They simply barrel straight through.

7F and I started together one day. Just the two of us. I was able to
gain a little on him in the first couple of glides, so he was a little
behind (not more than a quarter mile, at most). I came in to a strong
core, and started a gentle pull, then realized who was behind me. I
pulled hard and banked to 60 degrees. What a beautiful site as Sam
pulled up underneath me, within no more than two wingspans, and parked
at 180 degrees, in the core and at the same angle of bank. True
airmanship - not practiced by nearly enough of us.

I'll keep your contest ID in mind. I have no quibble with you. Your
entitled to your opinion, of finish gates and me. But I'll keep my
pulls gentle if I know you're behind me. For my sake, not yours.

Cheers,

OC

wrote:
The band of energy you need to be in to complete a safe pattern
insertion from 50 feet agl is pretty wide, from 100 knots up to
redline. If you find yourself unable to measure this until you are
already within the airport boundaries, you need to work on this skill.
Clearly, we are discussing this because there are pilots attending
races who cannot do this.

You're right, some of us who attend races cannot, or will not, do this.
I haven't made a pass under 300 feet in at least 10 years. Part of it
is the fact that, as with many, this "skill" was of necessity
self-taught (the closest I've ever come to being killed in a low pass
was when a CFIG was flying from the back seat). Part of it is the fact
that the vast majority of my glider flying is now at airports where
there is a mix of traffic, and low passes are simply not appropriate.
When I honestly looked at my past history of low passes, the number of
minor "incidents" (near encounters with other aircraft that I had not
previously been aware of, ending up with a less than expected amount of
energy, not remembering an important checklist item, etc.) ended up
being just too large a percentage of the overall total. So, I came to
the conclusion that I should no longer work on this particular skill...

Marc