My engine quit!

In a previous article, Steve Schneider said:
Paul, what is the field elevation where you are flying?

Low. 559 feet.

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
"The way I see it, unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless
we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can remain
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Steve Schneider wrote:


I've managed to do this once at a high altitude airport. We've flown
into Big Bear (L35 eleveation 6752) many times in the Turbo Lance II. On
one particular landing the engine coughed and died as we rolled off the
runway. Mixture was just a bit richer than it should have been. Never
had it do that at lower elevations. Hot starts are always a pain, worse
so at elevation it seems -- but I did get it running again.


I see this every summer. We're here at 3650 MSL and you flatlanders fly
in here and go to full rich to land. Engine dies on rollout and you tie
up the runway while you pour good gas after bad trying to restart your
flooded beast.

I ask because the boost pump on mine is just that. I always thought it
was part of the difference being turbocharged vs not. It is suppose to
be off for TO and landing, unlike an electric pump. In low it is just
used (never had to) to fix a rough engine or vapour lock. High is a
massive fuel flow that will flood the engine if the mixture isn't moved
almost to the cut off position. High is only to be used in even of an
engine driven pump failure. The rocker switch is also gated to prevent
inadvertant actifation.

John

Paul Tomblin wrote:

In a previous article, The Visitor said:

You call it a boost pump, this is a turbocharged engine?
Was it on high or low?


It's officially just called the "electric fuel pump", as opposed to the
engine driven fuel pump, but we call it "boost pump" for short.

Newps wrote:


Steve Schneider wrote:


I've managed to do this once at a high altitude airport. We've flown
into Big Bear (L35 eleveation 6752) many times in the Turbo Lance II.
On one particular landing the engine coughed and died as we rolled off
the runway. Mixture was just a bit richer than it should have been.
Never had it do that at lower elevations. Hot starts are always a
pain, worse so at elevation it seems -- but I did get it running again.



I see this every summer. We're here at 3650 MSL and you flatlanders fly
in here and go to full rich to land. Engine dies on rollout and you tie
up the runway while you pour good gas after bad trying to restart your
flooded beast.



There are many 'flatlanders' who fly into high altitude airports without
having had proper instruction on operating in that environment. The
typical problem is the high density altitude, overloaded departure that
ends up costing lives -- it happens a little too often at Big Bear.

That said, in many years of flying in and out of Big Bear (we have our
own tie down and keep a car at the airport, since we're up there quite
regularly) I haven't seen aircraft stalled on the runway or taxiways due
to a flooded engine being a common problem. In my case, I was perhaps a
1/4"-1/2" richer than normal on the mixture to keep the CHT down on a
particularly hot day (the turbo Lance is known for poor engine cooling
due to the cowl design), but far from full rich. However on any given
day, if you wander over to the fuel pit you'll often find the
un-initiated 'flatlanders' draining their battery trying in vain to
restart a flooded, hot engine after fueling.

When I learned to fly at NAS Alameda, the club would not permit pilots
to fly into airports above some specific elevation (which I've now long
forgotten) until they had logged a high altitude check out with a club
instructor. My indoctrination was in a Cardinal RG at Lake Tahoe back
in '81, by cracky. I know there currently are clubs down here in
flatland San Diego that don't have a similar requirement, but they
should. No doubt it would save some lives.

Steve

john smith wrote:

This situation hadn't occured to me, but it's one I could easily
encounter with either the Arrow or the Cherokee Six I fly.
Tip of the hat!

I can only speak for the Arrow. Checking the POH for our plane, it
calls for fuel pump on, and mixture "set". At my home field this means
mixture full rich.

I was taught "Pump, Red, Blue, Greens" (Fuel pump on, Mixture full Rich,
Prop full forward, 3 green landing gear indicators) call out on short
final. The only time I've hand any issue with this is at a high
altitude airport where I had the mixture too rich (wasn't full rich but
was rich enough that when I turned off at the taxiway, the engine quit).


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

Roy,

The only problem is, the damn thing says the fuel flow doesn't change one
iota between full rich and "aggressively leaned"


Ours does. Same engine. Guess your "aggressive" isn't aggressive enough.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

"d&tm" wrote in message
...
Very interesting scenario. The procedure I was taught in the Warrior was
to
turn the boost pump off at 500' AGL on the climb out. . You turn it back
on
again during downwind landing checks ( 1000' AGL)

Why would you want to turn off your fuel pump at arguably the worst possible
moment to have an engine failure? Take off, don't touch a thing till 1000'
AGL, then touch things gently and cautiously (I'm referring to engine
controls here, not gear, flaps etc). If you're in the pattern, leave the
fuel pump on the whole time. If you're really concerned about the engine
pump failing and wanting to check that, land, taxi off the runway, turn off
the fuel pump, and taxi back, then turn your fuel pump on again before
takeoff.

Hilton

"d&tm" wrote in message
...
Very interesting scenario. The procedure I was taught in the Warrior was
to
turn the boost pump off at 500' AGL on the climb out. . You turn it back
on
again during downwind landing checks ( 1000' AGL)

Why would you want to turn off your fuel pump at arguably the worst possible
moment to have an engine failure? Take off, don't touch a thing till 1000'
AGL, then touch things gently and cautiously (I'm referring to engine
controls here, not gear, flaps etc). If you're in the pattern, leave the
fuel pump on the whole time. If you're really concerned about the engine
pump failing and wanting to check that, land, taxi off the runway, turn off
the fuel pump, and taxi back, then turn your fuel pump on again before
takeoff.

Hilton


I too was taught to leave the pump on the whole time if you are to
remain in the pattern. However, I was also taught to leave the pump
on until established at cruise altitude.

Mike Flyin' 8

On Apr 4, 8:31 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,

--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
You'll get access to my computer room right after you pry the Halon test
key out of my cold, lifeless hands.
-- Simon Travaglia


What I would be interested to know is what did Maintenance find?

There is zero chance in my view that you flooded an engine under
combustion.

I have little or no experience with the engine in the Lance but a lot
with the Lyc's in a PIper Commanche (twin and single...up to the 400)
and this definatly should NOT happen.

Robert

In a previous article, Luke Skywalker said:
On Apr 4, 8:31 am, (Paul Tomblin) wrote:
I was doing my BFR last night in my club's Piper Lance (in case you're not
familiar: it has retractable gear and a IO-540 fuel injected engine). We
finished up with a bunch of touch and goes, demonstrating short, soft,

What I would be interested to know is what did Maintenance find?

It got flown a few times before the mechanic looked at it, and he was
baffled too, but whatever was wrong with it could have cleared up. It's
been starting and flying fine - no roughness, no indication of fouled
plugs, etc.


--
Paul Tomblin http://blog.xcski.com/
I trust the cut & paste under Win2k's telnet about as far as I can
comfortably spit a rat.
-- John Burnham