How to run a wing?

On Aug 10, 11:23*pm, Derek C wrote:
On Aug 10, 8:36*pm, bildan wrote:



On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:

On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver wrote:

On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C wrote:

On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan wrote:

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
wave off the wing runner altogether.
My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
forward on the wing tip.

On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. *The
Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
course they swore they had taken before hand. *They had never touched
a glider before.

I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. *Instead
of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
force on the wing tip. *They were to run the wing at the angle where
it balanced. *LEVEL was not applicable or important.

In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
there as long as the wing runner held the wing.

I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. *In most cases, I didn't have
to move the stick until the glider was airborne. *I didn't care what
hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
behind the wing tip. *In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
needed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously no crosswinds, gusts or thermals on that day? The ASK-21 has
plenty of mass and stability, so it is the best possible candidate for
this technique. May not work quite as well for many single seaters,
especially if carrying water ballast, or if you have a tug aircraft
that generates a lot of propwash (e.g PZL Wiga).

Derek C

Yes, there was a crosswind which is why it worked so well. It works
even better with ballasted single seaters.

On Aug 11, 9:07*am, "Larry Goddard" wrote:
"bildan" wrote in message

:



On Jul 12, 10:30*am, Bart wrote:
On Jul 11, 2:01*am, Bruce Hoult wrote:

I disagree. Depending on conditions, the pilot might need a
substantial amount of aileron in one direction of the other to keep
the forces neutral.

If I feel pressure on the wingtip while the slack is being taken up
then I allow the tip to go markedly high or low until the pilot
notices the glider is not level and applies the appropriate aileron..

That's what I like as a pilot, and that's how I will run a wing,
unless the glider pilot requests a different technique.

B.

I observed this example.

The pilot was holding full left aileron against a very light (2 - 3
Kt.) left crosswind component making the tip very heavy. *The wing
runner, on the left wing, allowed the wing to go to the ground
whereupon the pilot jerked his thumb up indicating he wanted the wing
raised all the while still holding full left aileron.

The wing runner did his best but when the wing was released, it
slammed down and the glider ground looped. *The pilot jumped out and
ran back demanding to know why the wing runner didn't know his job.

The group of observers tried to tell the pilot it was his fault for
holding left aileron but he insisted that was the right thing to do
and it wasn't his fault. *He had a very hard time finding willing wing
runners after that.

My take home: *If I were the pilot, I'd center the stick and let the
wing runner do the job right. *If I were the runner, I'd just put the
wing down and walk away.

If the pilot is not correcting properly when I have the wing "leveled",
I will allow the wing to rise or drop according to what it wants to do
so that the pilot will realize that he had the wrong inputs into the
stick. *Seems to work every time.

Larry

That's the backup action. If the pilot is holding neutral aileron,
the issue doesn't arise.

On Aug 11, 7:32*pm, bildan wrote:
On Aug 10, 11:23*pm, Derek C wrote:





On Aug 10, 8:36*pm, bildan wrote:

On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:

On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver wrote:

On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C wrote:

On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan wrote:

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
wave off the wing runner altogether.
My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
forward on the wing tip.

On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. *The
Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
course they swore they had taken before hand. *They had never touched
a glider before.

I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. *Instead
of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
force on the wing tip. *They were to run the wing at the angle where
it balanced. *LEVEL was not applicable or important.

In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
there as long as the wing runner held the wing.

I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. *In most cases, I didn't have
to move the stick until the glider was airborne. *I didn't care what
hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
behind the wing tip. *In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
needed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously no crosswinds, gusts or thermals on that day? The ASK-21 has
plenty of mass and stability, so it is the best possible candidate for
this technique. May not work quite as well for many single seaters,
especially if carrying water ballast, or if you have a tug aircraft
that generates a lot of propwash (e.g PZL Wiga).

Derek C

Yes, there was a crosswind which is why it worked so well. *It works
even better with ballasted single seaters.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Would only work if the wing tip runner holds the downwind tip and runs
pretty fast before letting go. The aileron response of a fully water
ballasted glider can be pretty minimum until a good airspeed is
reached, or there is a good headwind to start with. It may be
necessary to hold the wings level for quite a few seconds before
starting the launch to allow the water to equilibrate in the tanks or
bags.

Derek C

On Aug 11, 7:32*pm, bildan wrote:
On Aug 10, 11:23*pm, Derek C wrote:





On Aug 10, 8:36*pm, bildan wrote:

On Jul 13, 4:46*pm, Grider Pirate wrote:

On Jul 13, 3:14*pm, 150flivver wrote:

On Jul 13, 1:33*am, Derek C wrote:

On Jul 13, 12:31*am, Bob Whelan wrote:

As for 'the silver bullet' in wing-tip-holding-methodology, I've (for
many years now) asked my runners to let the wing rest on their flat
palm, give me the best run they can, and let the tug pull the wing
ahead/away from their open palm...no risk of a(n accidentally held-back)
run; eliminates any winglet issues; never flown (or encountered) a
glider with a downstream protuberance that could hang on anyone's hand
(though I've little doubt one - somewhere - exists!).

If you let the wing rest on the palm of your hand as a wing runner,
how do you prevent the wing lifting off it in a crosswind, if a gust
of wind comes through, or if the tug propwash gets underneath it?

I personally hold the wing as lightly as possible between my thumb and
first finger and at arms length. Some clubs I fly at also require the
wing tip runner to signal, so the two-handed method would not be
practical at these.

Derek C

As a tow pilot I'm looking for a rudder wag, radio call and or arm
signal from the wingrunner that the sailplane is ready to launch.
Lifting up the wing is gonna make me think that the glider's almost
ready but until I see a positive launch signal I'm gonna be
waitin' (and wondering if none of the three launch signals are
forthcoming).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This was what I was taught to do: *Once the pilot signals readiness by
giving me a thumbs up, I raise the wing to a wings level condition.
After the wing is level, I allow it to climb or descend, to cue the
pilot that he needs to apply some aileron to hold the wings level. *If
the pilot doesn't get the clue, and the takeoff roll starts, I was
taught again to allow the wing to move up or down SOME. *Most pilots
'get it' at this point, and start flying the wing.
When I'm flying the glider, I prefer the wing runner to hold the wing
as lightly as possible. *If there's a significant headwind, I often
wave off the wing runner altogether.
My pet 'wing runner' peave: Wing runners that 'help' by pushing
forward on the wing tip.

On Sunday, I flew 12 CAP Cadet orientation rides in an ASK-21. *The
Cadets only training for wing running was the on-line wing runner
course they swore they had taken before hand. *They had never touched
a glider before.

I added one additional instruction to what they had learned. *Instead
of holding the wings "level", I told them to BALANCE the glider with
their fingertips wherever it needed to be so there was no up or down
force on the wing tip. *They were to run the wing at the angle where
it balanced. *LEVEL was not applicable or important.

In cooperation with the wing runners, I placed the stick in the exact
center by reference to a mark on the instrument panel and held it
there as long as the wing runner held the wing.

I got 12 ABSOLUTELY PERFECT wing runs. *In most cases, I didn't have
to move the stick until the glider was airborne. *I didn't care what
hand they used or where they stood as long as they were safely outside/
behind the wing tip. *In fact, they don't even have to run at all if
the glider starts out balanced - it'll take long enough for a wing to
fall, the glider will have plenty of airspeed before any aileron is
needed.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Obviously no crosswinds, gusts or thermals on that day? The ASK-21 has
plenty of mass and stability, so it is the best possible candidate for
this technique. May not work quite as well for many single seaters,
especially if carrying water ballast, or if you have a tug aircraft
that generates a lot of propwash (e.g PZL Wiga).

Derek C

Yes, there was a crosswind which is why it worked so well. *It works
even better with ballasted single seaters.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Would only work if the wing tip runner holds the downwind tip and runs
pretty fast before letting go. The aileron response of a fully water
ballasted glider can be pretty minimum until a good airspeed is
reached, or there is a good headwind to start with. It may be
necessary to hold the wings level for quite a few seconds before
starting the launch to allow the water to equilibrate in the tanks or
bags.

Derek C

This is not rocket science. Actually, if I hadn't witnessed the
confusion at Hobbs this summer and read some of the responses to this
thread, I wouldn't have believed it possible that this subject could
generate so much controversy. So permit me to add to it.

The pilot keeps the stick neutral (that should only be a problem with
a side stick). The wing runner BALANCES the wings (may take many
seconds with water ballast). The wings may not be level when they're
balanced if the ballast is uneven and/or there's a steady crosswind.
The wing runner RUNS--holding the tip from the trailing edge, palm
under/thumb over--until the wingtip flies out of the hand (i.e., don't
hold it back). In normal US club and commercial operations, the
wingtip runner doesn't raise the tip until the pilot is ready and he
also signals the towplane to take up slack. At a contest, everything
is specialized and the wing runner may do nothing but hold the tip to
keep the wings balanced after the wingwheel is removed and then run
like crazy when another ops person gives the signal. I personally
don't want anyone touching the winglet but other pilots may think it's
OK. Ask first. I've run tips where the aileron comes all the way out
and never had a problem.

If there's a gusty crosswind, the wing runner may have to work hard to
prevent the upwind wing from being lifted. Ditto if the ballast shifts
slightly. Or if a gust rolls through during the first few seconds of
takeoff roll.

If the glider has a tailskid instead of a rubber tailwheel or for some
other reason it starts to swing (e.g., a Ka-6 or early ASW 15 with an
off-center towhitch), a savvy wing runner can apply a bit of fore or
aft force to help correct the direction. Don't try this unless you
really know what you're doing or the pilot has asked you to because
the glider has intentionally or accidentally been positioned off
heading.

When running a 1-26 or 2-33 with tip wheels towed by a strong towplane
into a nice headwind on a cool day at sea level, you can probably take
two steps and let go. When running a modern competition glider with
water ballast on a narrow runway with a crosswind at higher altitudes
when it's 100F behind the one of six tugs NO ONE wants to get because
his engine is anemic, run as fast and as far as you can and hope for
the best. As with most things in life, no single identical technique
works every time.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
USA